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Lord
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 The White Elephant (The Wizard and Magic)


OK. I may regret this because I'm very busy and I don't want anyone mad at me (like they are in Real Life :b ), but I am interested in possibly helping out/volunteering in the Spells and Magic department. As much as I love WHQ, the BIGGEST changes I've always wanted to make is with the spellcasting classes and the approach to them. I'm putting this topic out there now, because I'm reading unrelated topics and seeing references to a still broken Wizard/magic system. I think that changes or at least a direction needs to be chosen early because it will affect other aspects of the game.

Here's my opinions and the reasons why:

1) The Wizard sucks.
2) He's a Cheesemeister at any Battle-Level past 2, even if you don't use rules where he steals exp/Gold.
3) The idea of an all-purpose human Wizard that can cast spells from EVERY color of the spectrum of magic is against every flavor text from the Warhammer World!
4) Even if a Wizard COULD know all those spells at once, he would go INSANE - therefore Insanity rules are NEEDED in the Advanced game for all characters but ESPECIALLY spellcasters.
5) The idea of an all-purpose Wizard that heals as well as does damage is counter-intuitive to a fantasy game. Party balance is better served in the Advanced rules if there are separate classes to handle these roles. This is why in most fantasy games Clerics heal while Evokers dish out the damage spells.
6) It is TERRIBLY UNFAIR and POOR GAME DESIGN that the Barbarian/Elf/Dwarf get like 5 skills or so by BL 10, while the Wizard ends up with TWELVE to THIRTY-SOMETHING SPELLSIn his repertoire!!!
7) The Cheesy so-and-so even gets more spells than the High Elf Ranger Mage gets skills/spells!
8)The Wizard has few intelligent enemies, therefore Spellcasting Monsters need to use similar magic-casting systems (i.e. they need to be affected by the Winds of Magic as well.)
8a) I envision Monsters rolling for spells and then trying to cast more in the manner of Mordheim/WFB or the Elf Ranger. Keeping track of Monster Mana would be irritating at high level unless it is an important NPC.
9) If the Wizard was more balanced, there wouldn't be as big a need for Monsters to strike when the Power roll is '1'.
10) The Spell List needs to be divvied up according to what KIND of Magic it is (Petty, Battle, Color College, etc.)
11) More spells need to be added so that each College Wizard can have a full complement of spells to choose from.
12) IF you guys want the game and classes to more 'realistic', then the Wizard in the Basic Game may only start with Petty and Battle spells, and only at BL 2 does he have to choose what KIND of Wizard he will become... (Color College, Elementalist, Illusionist, Necromancer, Chaos Mage, Daemonologist, etc.)
13) IF you guys want the game to still use character templates, then the Wizard should be abolished and we need at LEAST the 8 Color Colleges to be fleshed out as choices for both the Basic Game and the Advanced.
14) It is possible to combine the above two ideas. For example, the Basic Game starts with a Wizard. You decide in advance what kind of Wizard you want to be in the long run. A newbie can choose to start with generic Battle and Petty spells like normal, or any mix of those and low level spells from their specialty.
15) Some brand of Cleric (Warrior Priest of Sigmar or Priest(ess) of Shallya should be available and created as a Basic Game choice so that the reduced Wizard does not also have to be "Heal Boy".

So, what is your feedback? If I were to work on this aspect of the project what would be the focus? Will there still be character templates or are your hearts set on creating characters from scratch? Do you want me to STFU and go away? emoticon How would Nagash look in a tutu?

My character selection screen at home includes some 80 characters classes. How many do you eventually envision for the Advanced portion of the game (excluding unbalanced/untested/"homebrewed" ones)?

---
"Mine is a high art. I wound with cruelty those who would harm me." - Archillicus
2/Jun/2005, 11:12 am Link to this post Send Email to BassJam   Send PM to BassJam
 
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Lord
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Re: The White Elephant (The Wizard and Magic)


Ahh, one more question... I just saw the "Healing Injuries" rules and it sparked another consideration...

How plentiful should healing magic be? In WFRP, there is not much in the way of healing, so a Physician is an important profession. In WHQ, Heals are a dime a dozen (literally if you have the Wand that makes Healing Hands 1 Power). Say you want to keep it that way, at what point does healing Wounds heal the EFFECTS of said wound? For example, I play that a Heal spell will NOT mend a broken arm, but a Lifeforce spell that heals 33 Wounds of damage might!

---
"Mine is a high art. I wound with cruelty those who would harm me." - Archillicus
2/Jun/2005, 11:50 am Link to this post Send Email to BassJam   Send PM to BassJam
 
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Lord
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Re: The White Elephant (The Wizard and Magic)


First of all, I should warn you that I write this top of my head, without any in depth search in the topic (from either the rule book or other posts).

Instead of choosing from X schools of magic (and making it more complicated for the beginning player), just focus on the three main streams, namely Attack spells, Healing spells and Defense spells.

The lvl 1 Wizard chooses a spell from all three classes and from lvl 2 chooses one of these branches in which he focusses his studies. That way, you can make a great attacker, a good healer or a good support, but never all three. If he wishes to learn a spell outside his category (for instance a healing spell when he's an attacker), he should be able to do so when he goes up a lvl, but only if he uses up double the amount of spell points needed from his amount to choose from (for example, he goes up to lvl 3, rolls 3 dice, a 4, 4 and 2, and wants to choose Heal Wounds at cost 4, so he has to spend 8 points of his pool, giving him just 2 to choose an attack spell, either Strength or Flesh Worm). Special spells can be chosen like normal spells of field (since some are not that important in a game without DM).

That way no new spells need to be thought off and no dividing of the existing spells has to be made (so no argueing of putting a spell in the wrong school).

Anyway, this is made up on the go and there may be flaws in it, since I'm pretty tired as I type it.
2/Jun/2005, 1:42 pm Link to this post Send Email to Sudden Real   Send PM to Sudden Real
 
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Re: The White Elephant (The Wizard and Magic)


Actually your idea is a great one if the system is to be kept simple. However, I'm considering that a 2nd Edition of WHQ should ideally be somewhat representative of the Warhammer world especially since Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay's 2nd edition has just been released. In that world, most Wizards can cast Attack, Defense, and Healing spells, but after a certain point, there are spells which only certain specialist Wizards would know.

My idea is that, in the Basic Game, all of the 15 starting spells (5 each of Attack, Defense and Healing) would all be either Battle or Petty Magics so that the novice player wouldn't have to deal with all this complicated stuff - but the Advanced Wizard would have to choose their specialist path either in advance or during their Training process.

---
"Mine is a high art. I wound with cruelty those who would harm me." - Archillicus
2/Jun/2005, 1:56 pm Link to this post Send Email to BassJam   Send PM to BassJam
 
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Lord
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Re: The White Elephant (The Wizard and Magic)


Oh boy. Note to self: put stuff halfway finished on Sticky as well as finished stuff.

quote:


2) He's a Cheesemeister at any Battle-Level past 2, even if you don't use rules where he steals exp/Gold.



quote:


3, 4, 5 and 10+



We already cut out the all purpose Wizards. Here, starting near the end of page 2.:

[sign in to see URL]


quote:


6 and 7



I haven't actually seen the tables, but in the discussion above (again, page 2) the Wizard has been cut down to 6 spells per title. I'm not sure if that means 24 or 18 by the end (who counts Novice as a title in the 1st Ed, really?) but yeah.

8) Yeah, we can work on monsters during the Monster section. Good points, though.

9) Already done - the Unexpected Events and Power rolls are seperate in the same phase. Which honestly needs a new name.


You'll need to talk to Custodian about the details, so give him some time. But at least read the spell on spellcasting before posting critiques. emoticon


2/Jun/2005, 3:09 pm Link to this post Send Email to Black Drazon   Send PM to Black Drazon
 
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Lord
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Re: The White Elephant (The Wizard and Magic)


Don't worry - like I said, I missed the discussion you linked to. My critiques are all of the original WHQ Wizard, the most broken part of that game!

I personally don't have too much of a problem with College-trained wizards adventuring underground though - If you look at the stat line of WFB wizards and WHQ adventuring Wizards it's pretty similar...

Anyways, I'm relieved to see that Custodian is already on it!

Btw, I own a good little pamphlet on Hedge Wizards (and Witches!) that has some good info - the concept is that they are MASTERS of Petty Magic and can therefore cast more powerful versions of those spells and get extra bonuses with them.

Final P.S. : I see none of you like Healing Hands. That spell isn't cheesy AND you don't have to have a spellcasting limit per Turn as long as you adapt this rule:

The same spell cannot be cast more than once per Turn. TAKE THAT WAND OF JET!!!

Of course, there can be exceptions if you store spells in items.


---
"Mine is a high art. I wound with cruelty those who would harm me." - Archillicus
3/Jun/2005, 12:47 am Link to this post Send Email to BassJam   Send PM to BassJam
 
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Re: The White Elephant (The Wizard and Magic)


The problem with Healing Hands lies in the fact that, in 1st Edition standard, it allows you to bring back all warriors not struck down by Fatal Damage. For 2 Power. That's the problem :S.
3/Jun/2005, 10:54 am Link to this post Send Email to Black Drazon   Send PM to Black Drazon
 
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Lord
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Re: The White Elephant (The Wizard and Magic)


quote:

Black Drazon wrote:

The problem with Healing Hands lies in the fact that, in 1st Edition standard, it allows you to bring back all warriors not struck down by Fatal Damage. For 2 Power. That's the problem :S.



I've still never had a problem with it - but when GMing I have a couple nasty things up my sleeve to keep players from getting too comfy (besides Poison and Disease which has taught players harsh lessons about what we call 'bubbling' - allowing players to stay at 1-3 Wounds during tough battles.)

The worst is that I use the WFRP Critical Wounds chart (as opposed to Critical Hits!) In WFRP you use these nasty nasty crits any time a character goes below 0. I like WHQ to be fast and fun so I don't use that chart until they get below -10 Wounds. So on the chart, -12 Wounds = a +2 Critical Wound. So players can't get too comfy just because their opponent is "only" a Minotaur. (I had a Witch Hunter get cleaved in half by one this year - NO healing spell in the party could fix THAT!)

To make this perfectly clear, only the GM has to keep track of these negative Wounds (I got the idea from the Giant rules which specify that death occurs at -50.) As far as the players are concerned, their Warrior is at 0 Wounds and a Healing Hands spell can still bring them to 1 and to their feet. But I know that death is around the corner any second if they are hit by a particularly powerful blow. (My Monsters tend not to whale on prone fellows, so it's multiple damage dice or a Crit on a single hit that cause the Critical Wounds. I've only used those charts twice over 5 years, but it is still great fun to know that anything is possible...)



---
"Mine is a high art. I wound with cruelty those who would harm me." - Archillicus
3/Jun/2005, 2:51 pm Link to this post Send Email to BassJam   Send PM to BassJam
 
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Lord
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Re: The White Elephant (The Wizard and Magic)


Hm, that's interesting, but I think we turned down negative wounds a while ago... it's anotehr good thing you could bring up for the optional rules, though emoticon


"Bubbling", huh? lol.
4/Jun/2005, 5:26 am Link to this post Send Email to Black Drazon   Send PM to Black Drazon
 
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Re: The White Elephant (The Wizard and Magic)


Well, like I said, the negative wounds is imaginary only. The whole concept is definitely Optional RUles material since it's not necessary in the Basic Game anyhow.

The Basic Game is so hard for unequipped newbs that I never found ANYthing to be cheesy on the part of the Warriors! I've only ever run into balance issues at levels 3+

---
"Mine is a high art. I wound with cruelty those who would harm me." - Archillicus
4/Jun/2005, 8:55 am Link to this post Send Email to BassJam   Send PM to BassJam
 


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