The White Elephant (The Wizard and Magic) https://bwarhammerquest.runboard.com/t89907 Runboard| The White Elephant (The Wizard and Magic) en-us Fri, 29 Mar 2024 10:34:41 +0000 Fri, 29 Mar 2024 10:34:41 +0000 https://www.runboard.com/ rssfeeds_managingeditor@runboard.com (Runboard.com RSS feeds managing editor) rssfeeds_webmaster@runboard.com (Runboard.com RSS feeds webmaster) akBBS 60 Re: The White Elephant (The Wizard and Magic)https://bwarhammerquest.runboard.com/p557188,from=rss#post557188https://bwarhammerquest.runboard.com/p557188,from=rss#post557188I know, Sudden Real, we need a "closing post" summerising all the threads, I'll see what I can do about that later tonight. The Sticky Thread is kind of useless given the post limit (I think there's a post limit). lol, I have led several parties through Karak Azgal (the quest included in the Roleplay Book). If they survive that quest, they will never die, ever. Guarenteed. If they do die, it'll be to the Minotaurs at the end of the quest or *snicker* the goblins at the front. Also guarenteed.nondisclosed_email@example.com (Black Drazon)Wed, 15 Jun 2005 07:45:02 +0000 Re: The White Elephant (The Wizard and Magic)https://bwarhammerquest.runboard.com/p557187,from=rss#post557187https://bwarhammerquest.runboard.com/p557187,from=rss#post557187I need Amaka to poke her head in here, because she doesn't have a problem with her very healthy fear of Death! She still hasn't been able to keep a character alive to see BL 3! :bad: I know I'll never remove those two spells (HH and Res) from my own games because I like the extreme goods and the extreme bads that clash in WHQ...nondisclosed_email@example.com (BassJam)Mon, 13 Jun 2005 14:10:00 +0000 Re: The White Elephant (The Wizard and Magic)https://bwarhammerquest.runboard.com/p557186,from=rss#post557186https://bwarhammerquest.runboard.com/p557186,from=rss#post557186True... didn't really remember why Healing Hands was banned, only that it was too powerful in it's current form. But you're right, I forgot about the serious Death threath. What can I say, I still have other things on my mind and it's hard to keep track of what was decided in the past if a topic isn't closed yet. My sincerest apologies to bring this back up, and if you'll excuse me, I'll go back to my corner trying to think of stuff that isn't mentioned or resolved yet. edit: Still, I think I'm on to something with this "if only healed 1 wound when on 0 wounds you're still prone the next turn" thing... it would add something to the severe damage (not critical wounds or anything) that was talked about in another post. No warrior that was on the brink of death can fight as good as one on full health...nondisclosed_email@example.com (Sudden Real)Mon, 13 Jun 2005 07:40:16 +0000 Re: The White Elephant (The Wizard and Magic)https://bwarhammerquest.runboard.com/p557185,from=rss#post557185https://bwarhammerquest.runboard.com/p557185,from=rss#post557185WHAT Ressurrection? lol, keep up, Sudden Real... The real problem with Healing Hands is just that... it keeps warriors alive. The purpose of tweaking both Healing Hands and tweaking (with a block of C4) Ressurection was to put the fear of death back into the warriors. Death, after all and to quote Bruno, should be a very serious thing! In fact, to further punish those at the brink of death... I was pretty sure we settled on Boyinleaves system of injuries... but no one seems to remember that so I never brought it up. Anyways, I'm just stating what happened before, you all can fight over it, I guess.nondisclosed_email@example.com (Black Drazon)Mon, 13 Jun 2005 06:22:46 +0000 Re: The White Elephant (The Wizard and Magic)https://bwarhammerquest.runboard.com/p557184,from=rss#post557184https://bwarhammerquest.runboard.com/p557184,from=rss#post557184Well, since this thread already handles magic (see the title), rather than starting a new thread, I will just put my suggestion here. Black Drazon already banned the Healing Hands spell because of it's cheezieness, and I have to agree, while it's a life saver at certain occasions, it's WAY too powerful to be decent. So why not this addition: if the warrior is at more than 1 wound, he heals 1 wound. If he's at 0 wounds, he just stays alive at the end of the turn. Let me clarify: a warrior is 0 wounds and is prone until the end of the turn, on which he dies if he's not healed. If he's healed 1 point through the Healing Hands (or by any spell come to think of it, if it's only 1 point), he doesn't die, but still starts the next turn on 0 wound and is considered prone for the rest of the turn if he's not healed. If he's not healed at all, he still dies. If another Healing Hands is cast, he survives another turn but still can't do a thing. This way, the spell is powered down, yet remains the initial purpose of the spell (keeping warriors alive). Even though the warrior can't do a thing, he looses nothing when he's healed later, thus ignoring the penalties of a Resurrection. Just a thought anyway...nondisclosed_email@example.com (Sudden Real)Sun, 12 Jun 2005 10:34:09 +0000 Re: The White Elephant (The Wizard and Magic)https://bwarhammerquest.runboard.com/p557183,from=rss#post557183https://bwarhammerquest.runboard.com/p557183,from=rss#post557183As it is currently envisioned, for the College Wizards at any rate, they will have access to all the spells at their level (1-4th). Then they have to pick which ones they want before each dungeon. Simple! Sigmar alone knows what I'm going to do with Hedge and High magics...nondisclosed_email@example.com (thecustodian)Sat, 11 Jun 2005 23:49:33 +0000 Re: The White Elephant (The Wizard and Magic)https://bwarhammerquest.runboard.com/p557182,from=rss#post557182https://bwarhammerquest.runboard.com/p557182,from=rss#post557182quote:Boyinleaves wrote: I'm not really sure about negative wounds being necessary for a warrior to suffer a serious or critical injury. In my games, warriors suffer problematic injuries as soon as they hit 0 wounds, and that keeps them keen to stay healthy, which they should want to do anyway, but I really like the idea of imposing penalties for just how much under 0 (or -10 or whatever) they go. Any penalties on the serious injuries chart that I use would be an extremely painful experience . Cool idea with the memory limitations SanFongLong. Don't forget, I use Critical Wounds AND Critical Hits ;-) ... Critical Hits are more common in my games, but not as deadly, (though they have the potential to be). nondisclosed_email@example.com (BassJam)Fri, 10 Jun 2005 12:16:47 +0000 Re: The White Elephant (The Wizard and Magic)https://bwarhammerquest.runboard.com/p557181,from=rss#post557181https://bwarhammerquest.runboard.com/p557181,from=rss#post557181I'm not really sure about negative wounds being necessary for a warrior to suffer a serious or critical injury. In my games, warriors suffer problematic injuries as soon as they hit 0 wounds, and that keeps them keen to stay healthy, which they should want to do anyway, but I really like the idea of imposing penalties for just how much under 0 (or -10 or whatever) they go. Any penalties on the serious injuries chart that I use would be an extremely painful experience . Cool idea with the memory limitations SanFongLong. nondisclosed_email@example.com (Boyinleaves)Thu, 09 Jun 2005 09:29:03 +0000 Re: The White Elephant (The Wizard and Magic)https://bwarhammerquest.runboard.com/p557180,from=rss#post557180https://bwarhammerquest.runboard.com/p557180,from=rss#post557180 I've had a look at the character creation lists that Peter Haresnape made and they seem to already have gone a big step to providing a solution.   Magic is broken down into 4 'predispositions', High Magic, Colours, Common, and Hedge Magic.   The was the biggest issue in WHQ1 with the wizard was the mix and match he could do at higher levels and the overpowerful spells later on.   To remedy this you just have to restrict the choices of spells the wizard can make and then limit the number of uber spells they can REMEMBER!   The way I see it spells are complicated and difficult to learn and therefore a wizard should have limit to the amount of spells they can remember. Say you give them so many memory points per level (d6 or something) and then they have to tey and memorise some new spells based on the memory they have gained. The more powerful the spell, the more complicated and harder to remember.   Give them a restriction on how many spells they can remember from each valid category (High,Colours,Common,Hedge) and if they want to replace a spell they already memorised penalise them by not giving them those memory points back. (Maybe that's a bit harsh but as GM I control the evil doers don't I)nondisclosed_email@example.com (SanFongLong)Sun, 05 Jun 2005 11:19:11 +0000 Re: The White Elephant (The Wizard and Magic)https://bwarhammerquest.runboard.com/p557179,from=rss#post557179https://bwarhammerquest.runboard.com/p557179,from=rss#post557179Like Golembane said, there isn't really balance issues at BL1 (*cough*WizardswithFreeze*cough*), but if we don't change the basic rules, everyone, I promise you, will ignore any changes we make to them that appear in the Advanced Rules. It's just psychology.nondisclosed_email@example.com (Black Drazon)Sun, 05 Jun 2005 02:38:53 +0000 Re: The White Elephant (The Wizard and Magic)https://bwarhammerquest.runboard.com/p557178,from=rss#post557178https://bwarhammerquest.runboard.com/p557178,from=rss#post557178Agreed on the balance stuff. Again, for negative wounds, there is NO need for paperwork. If your Warrior is on 1 Wound and takes 6 points of real damage, then you KNOW that that can't possibly be -11 Wounds. Therefore the Warrior is at 0 and all Monsters stop attacking him, leaving him for dead. If your Warrior is on 1 Wound and takes 13 points of Real Damage, the player still takes him to 0 Wounds, but since the hit would take the Warrior down to -12 then that hit is a +2 Critical Wound on an Optional Rules chart. At this point it is likely that the wound cannot be healed by normal healing spells which only bind flesh and boyinleaves' chart or another would be necessary to be healed.nondisclosed_email@example.com (BassJam)Sun, 05 Jun 2005 01:58:00 +0000 Re: The White Elephant (The Wizard and Magic)https://bwarhammerquest.runboard.com/p557177,from=rss#post557177https://bwarhammerquest.runboard.com/p557177,from=rss#post557177Reason balance issues started to rear their head lvl 3+ is simply because magic items/gold were to freely available. Inflation among the warriors. When the warriors are poor and running on the basic needs of battle is where the game proves to be balanced and this sadly is only in the first few levels. After that the wizard grows in power at an almost astounding rate while the warriors begin getting treasure after treasure.... I am an advocate of making the players really of class/character skill much less the items. If you notice thats what I try to say limit spells to maybe 6 specialist classes for the different mages. Wizard: direct dmg. Maybe 1 AoE. Warrior priest: Healer(both direct and AoE) and buffer Elven mage: AoE or deamon and undead slayer etc. Gives the players a need to figure out exactly what they want to be important in a battle and gets every type of magic class an importance. My wife used to play a warrior priest and found the rules to be often frustrating because no matter what she could do the wizard could do better. As for the wounds. negative wounds really results in alot of paper work some wont take the time to do. I know in any game I've played with negative wounds I've just said once a player hits 0 you have until the end of the next "I" phase to heal him somehow before hes out for the count. Much simpler and gives the players the need to rush to save the parties main tank should he go down. nondisclosed_email@example.com (golembane)Sat, 04 Jun 2005 12:30:16 +0000 Re: The White Elephant (The Wizard and Magic)https://bwarhammerquest.runboard.com/p557176,from=rss#post557176https://bwarhammerquest.runboard.com/p557176,from=rss#post557176Well, like I said, the negative wounds is imaginary only. The whole concept is definitely Optional RUles material since it's not necessary in the Basic Game anyhow. The Basic Game is so hard for unequipped newbs that I never found ANYthing to be cheesy on the part of the Warriors! I've only ever run into balance issues at levels 3+nondisclosed_email@example.com (BassJam)Sat, 04 Jun 2005 08:55:32 +0000 Re: The White Elephant (The Wizard and Magic)https://bwarhammerquest.runboard.com/p557175,from=rss#post557175https://bwarhammerquest.runboard.com/p557175,from=rss#post557175Hm, that's interesting, but I think we turned down negative wounds a while ago... it's anotehr good thing you could bring up for the optional rules, though "Bubbling", huh? lol.nondisclosed_email@example.com (Black Drazon)Sat, 04 Jun 2005 05:26:33 +0000 Re: The White Elephant (The Wizard and Magic)https://bwarhammerquest.runboard.com/p557174,from=rss#post557174https://bwarhammerquest.runboard.com/p557174,from=rss#post557174quote:Black Drazon wrote: The problem with Healing Hands lies in the fact that, in 1st Edition standard, it allows you to bring back all warriors not struck down by Fatal Damage. For 2 Power. That's the problem :S. I've still never had a problem with it - but when GMing I have a couple nasty things up my sleeve to keep players from getting too comfy (besides Poison and Disease which has taught players harsh lessons about what we call 'bubbling' - allowing players to stay at 1-3 Wounds during tough battles.) The worst is that I use the WFRP Critical Wounds chart (as opposed to Critical Hits!) In WFRP you use these nasty nasty crits any time a character goes below 0. I like WHQ to be fast and fun so I don't use that chart until they get below -10 Wounds. So on the chart, -12 Wounds = a +2 Critical Wound. So players can't get too comfy just because their opponent is "only" a Minotaur. (I had a Witch Hunter get cleaved in half by one this year - NO healing spell in the party could fix THAT!) To make this perfectly clear, only the GM has to keep track of these negative Wounds (I got the idea from the Giant rules which specify that death occurs at -50.) As far as the players are concerned, their Warrior is at 0 Wounds and a Healing Hands spell can still bring them to 1 and to their feet. But I know that death is around the corner any second if they are hit by a particularly powerful blow. (My Monsters tend not to whale on prone fellows, so it's multiple damage dice or a Crit on a single hit that cause the Critical Wounds. I've only used those charts twice over 5 years, but it is still great fun to know that anything is possible...) nondisclosed_email@example.com (BassJam)Fri, 03 Jun 2005 14:51:09 +0000 Re: The White Elephant (The Wizard and Magic)https://bwarhammerquest.runboard.com/p557173,from=rss#post557173https://bwarhammerquest.runboard.com/p557173,from=rss#post557173The problem with Healing Hands lies in the fact that, in 1st Edition standard, it allows you to bring back all warriors not struck down by Fatal Damage. For 2 Power. That's the problem :S.nondisclosed_email@example.com (Black Drazon)Fri, 03 Jun 2005 10:54:02 +0000 Re: The White Elephant (The Wizard and Magic)https://bwarhammerquest.runboard.com/p557172,from=rss#post557172https://bwarhammerquest.runboard.com/p557172,from=rss#post557172Don't worry - like I said, I missed the discussion you linked to. My critiques are all of the original WHQ Wizard, the most broken part of that game! I personally don't have too much of a problem with College-trained wizards adventuring underground though - If you look at the stat line of WFB wizards and WHQ adventuring Wizards it's pretty similar... Anyways, I'm relieved to see that Custodian is already on it! Btw, I own a good little pamphlet on Hedge Wizards (and Witches!) that has some good info - the concept is that they are MASTERS of Petty Magic and can therefore cast more powerful versions of those spells and get extra bonuses with them. Final P.S. : I see none of you like Healing Hands. That spell isn't cheesy AND you don't have to have a spellcasting limit per Turn as long as you adapt this rule: The same spell cannot be cast more than once per Turn. TAKE THAT WAND OF JET!!! Of course, there can be exceptions if you store spells in items. nondisclosed_email@example.com (BassJam)Fri, 03 Jun 2005 00:47:37 +0000 Re: The White Elephant (The Wizard and Magic)https://bwarhammerquest.runboard.com/p557171,from=rss#post557171https://bwarhammerquest.runboard.com/p557171,from=rss#post557171Oh boy. Note to self: put stuff halfway finished on Sticky as well as finished stuff. quote: 2) He's a Cheesemeister at any Battle-Level past 2, even if you don't use rules where he steals exp/Gold. quote: 3, 4, 5 and 10+ We already cut out the all purpose Wizards. Here, starting near the end of page 2.: http://com1.runboard.com/bwarhammerquest.fwarhammerquest2ndedition.t15 quote: 6 and 7 I haven't actually seen the tables, but in the discussion above (again, page 2) the Wizard has been cut down to 6 spells per title. I'm not sure if that means 24 or 18 by the end (who counts Novice as a title in the 1st Ed, really?) but yeah. 8) Yeah, we can work on monsters during the Monster section. Good points, though. 9) Already done - the Unexpected Events and Power rolls are seperate in the same phase. Which honestly needs a new name. You'll need to talk to Custodian about the details, so give him some time. But at least read the spell on spellcasting before posting critiques. nondisclosed_email@example.com (Black Drazon)Thu, 02 Jun 2005 15:09:25 +0000 Re: The White Elephant (The Wizard and Magic)https://bwarhammerquest.runboard.com/p557170,from=rss#post557170https://bwarhammerquest.runboard.com/p557170,from=rss#post557170Actually your idea is a great one if the system is to be kept simple. However, I'm considering that a 2nd Edition of WHQ should ideally be somewhat representative of the Warhammer world especially since Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay's 2nd edition has just been released. In that world, most Wizards can cast Attack, Defense, and Healing spells, but after a certain point, there are spells which only certain specialist Wizards would know. My idea is that, in the Basic Game, all of the 15 starting spells (5 each of Attack, Defense and Healing) would all be either Battle or Petty Magics so that the novice player wouldn't have to deal with all this complicated stuff - but the Advanced Wizard would have to choose their specialist path either in advance or during their Training process.nondisclosed_email@example.com (BassJam)Thu, 02 Jun 2005 13:56:48 +0000 Re: The White Elephant (The Wizard and Magic)https://bwarhammerquest.runboard.com/p557169,from=rss#post557169https://bwarhammerquest.runboard.com/p557169,from=rss#post557169First of all, I should warn you that I write this top of my head, without any in depth search in the topic (from either the rule book or other posts). Instead of choosing from X schools of magic (and making it more complicated for the beginning player), just focus on the three main streams, namely Attack spells, Healing spells and Defense spells. The lvl 1 Wizard chooses a spell from all three classes and from lvl 2 chooses one of these branches in which he focusses his studies. That way, you can make a great attacker, a good healer or a good support, but never all three. If he wishes to learn a spell outside his category (for instance a healing spell when he's an attacker), he should be able to do so when he goes up a lvl, but only if he uses up double the amount of spell points needed from his amount to choose from (for example, he goes up to lvl 3, rolls 3 dice, a 4, 4 and 2, and wants to choose Heal Wounds at cost 4, so he has to spend 8 points of his pool, giving him just 2 to choose an attack spell, either Strength or Flesh Worm). Special spells can be chosen like normal spells of field (since some are not that important in a game without DM). That way no new spells need to be thought off and no dividing of the existing spells has to be made (so no argueing of putting a spell in the wrong school). Anyway, this is made up on the go and there may be flaws in it, since I'm pretty tired as I type it.nondisclosed_email@example.com (Sudden Real)Thu, 02 Jun 2005 13:42:52 +0000 Re: The White Elephant (The Wizard and Magic)https://bwarhammerquest.runboard.com/p557168,from=rss#post557168https://bwarhammerquest.runboard.com/p557168,from=rss#post557168Ahh, one more question... I just saw the "Healing Injuries" rules and it sparked another consideration... How plentiful should healing magic be? In WFRP, there is not much in the way of healing, so a Physician is an important profession. In WHQ, Heals are a dime a dozen (literally if you have the Wand that makes Healing Hands 1 Power). Say you want to keep it that way, at what point does healing Wounds heal the EFFECTS of said wound? For example, I play that a Heal spell will NOT mend a broken arm, but a Lifeforce spell that heals 33 Wounds of damage might! nondisclosed_email@example.com (BassJam)Thu, 02 Jun 2005 11:50:28 +0000 The White Elephant (The Wizard and Magic)https://bwarhammerquest.runboard.com/p557167,from=rss#post557167https://bwarhammerquest.runboard.com/p557167,from=rss#post557167OK. I may regret this because I'm very busy and I don't want anyone mad at me (like they are in Real Life :b ), but I am interested in possibly helping out/volunteering in the Spells and Magic department. As much as I love WHQ, the BIGGEST changes I've always wanted to make is with the spellcasting classes and the approach to them. I'm putting this topic out there now, because I'm reading unrelated topics and seeing references to a still broken Wizard/magic system. I think that changes or at least a direction needs to be chosen early because it will affect other aspects of the game. Here's my opinions and the reasons why: 1) The Wizard sucks. 2) He's a Cheesemeister at any Battle-Level past 2, even if you don't use rules where he steals exp/Gold. 3) The idea of an all-purpose human Wizard that can cast spells from EVERY color of the spectrum of magic is against every flavor text from the Warhammer World! 4) Even if a Wizard COULD know all those spells at once, he would go INSANE - therefore Insanity rules are NEEDED in the Advanced game for all characters but ESPECIALLY spellcasters. 5) The idea of an all-purpose Wizard that heals as well as does damage is counter-intuitive to a fantasy game. Party balance is better served in the Advanced rules if there are separate classes to handle these roles. This is why in most fantasy games Clerics heal while Evokers dish out the damage spells. 6) It is TERRIBLY UNFAIR and POOR GAME DESIGN that the Barbarian/Elf/Dwarf get like 5 skills or so by BL 10, while the Wizard ends up with TWELVE to THIRTY-SOMETHING SPELLSIn his repertoire!!! 7) The Cheesy so-and-so even gets more spells than the High Elf Ranger Mage gets skills/spells! 8)The Wizard has few intelligent enemies, therefore Spellcasting Monsters need to use similar magic-casting systems (i.e. they need to be affected by the Winds of Magic as well.) 8a) I envision Monsters rolling for spells and then trying to cast more in the manner of Mordheim/WFB or the Elf Ranger. Keeping track of Monster Mana would be irritating at high level unless it is an important NPC. 9) If the Wizard was more balanced, there wouldn't be as big a need for Monsters to strike when the Power roll is '1'. 10) The Spell List needs to be divvied up according to what KIND of Magic it is (Petty, Battle, Color College, etc.) 11) More spells need to be added so that each College Wizard can have a full complement of spells to choose from. 12) IF you guys want the game and classes to more 'realistic', then the Wizard in the Basic Game may only start with Petty and Battle spells, and only at BL 2 does he have to choose what KIND of Wizard he will become... (Color College, Elementalist, Illusionist, Necromancer, Chaos Mage, Daemonologist, etc.) 13) IF you guys want the game to still use character templates, then the Wizard should be abolished and we need at LEAST the 8 Color Colleges to be fleshed out as choices for both the Basic Game and the Advanced. 14) It is possible to combine the above two ideas. For example, the Basic Game starts with a Wizard. You decide in advance what kind of Wizard you want to be in the long run. A newbie can choose to start with generic Battle and Petty spells like normal, or any mix of those and low level spells from their specialty. 15) Some brand of Cleric (Warrior Priest of Sigmar or Priest(ess) of Shallya should be available and created as a Basic Game choice so that the reduced Wizard does not also have to be "Heal Boy". So, what is your feedback? If I were to work on this aspect of the project what would be the focus? Will there still be character templates or are your hearts set on creating characters from scratch? Do you want me to STFU and go away? How would Nagash look in a tutu? My character selection screen at home includes some 80 characters classes. How many do you eventually envision for the Advanced portion of the game (excluding unbalanced/untested/"homebrewed" ones)? nondisclosed_email@example.com (BassJam)Thu, 02 Jun 2005 11:12:01 +0000