BassJam
Lord
Registered: 07-2003
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 542
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My take on 2nd Ed.
OK. First of all, I apologize for barging in here because I haven't read more than a fraction of all that you guys are working on. Also, I haven't been convinced of the NEED for a 2nd Edition (we have supply but is there a demand?) - I have liked expanding the game and making changes for my own use, though, and Bruno has asked me to check this forum out so I'm observing a few things.
My main advice for this project is to please avoid making changes unless they are NECESSARY. This is important because all of us can think of better rules and especially more realistic ones than the originals, but before willy-nilly making changes it's important to ask 1)Will the new rule be easier to understand or use? 2) Will the new rule be more FUN? 3)What other existing rules will the new rule affect? 4)After considering all this, will the new rule be BETTER?
I see a lot of good ideas in this forum, but there are still things I'm unclear on. The biggest question that springs to my mind is "How realistic is the new Edition supposed to be?" I ask because I like WHQ as a fun dungeon crawling hack n' slash game with high action and low roleplay. (Compared to White Wolf games (realistic, low action, high roleplay) / D&D (sorta realistic, variable action & roleplay) / WFRP (gritty and realistic take on Warhammer, low action, high roleplay))
In the posts I see here I see some people pushing for changes in the name of realism, some people pushing for changes in the name of focussing less on towns, some people pushing for more complex rules, and some pushing to keep the gameplay fun and fast. I started this topic because I'm curious to see people weigh in on what overall direction you'd like the game to go in as well as what direction you perceive 2nd Edition headed in currently.
Having said all that, I'm gonna make another post to address the BIGGEST change I dream of making to WHQ!
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"Mine is a high art. I wound with cruelty those who would harm me." - Archillicus
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2/Jun/2005, 10:33 am
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BassJam
Lord
Registered: 07-2003
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 542
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Re: My take on 2nd Ed.
Here's a link to a similar viewpoint on a similar project. Of note is the discussion of magic, insanity, and discussion of how rules can help maintain the atmosphere that is trying to be conveyed.
IMO, the atmosphere of WHQ has always been TOO whimsical and strayed too far from the grittier darker feel of WFRP and Mordheim. Getting "Mitey Worrier" tattooed on your back 7 times in a row is good for a laugh, but doesn't lend itself well to the foreboding feeling of a dungeon crawl where you fear for for your character's life.
So, that's another question - should the atmosphere stay the same, be grittier, or be MUCH more difficult and dark? http://www.strike-to-stun.com/WFRP/warhammer/wfrp2ndedition.htm
Last edited by BassJam, 2/Jun/2005, 2:05 pm
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"Mine is a high art. I wound with cruelty those who would harm me." - Archillicus
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2/Jun/2005, 2:04 pm
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Black Drazon
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Registered: 04-2005
Posts: 217
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Re: My take on 2nd Ed.
Don't mind me, I'm late and its tired. Errr... it's late and I'm tired. Right.
The need for a second edition was stated time and time again in the old Slayer's Quest Tomb forum and the old mailing list. It comes down to a few simple points - the the game is unrealistic at times, out of sync with the rest of the Warhammer games more of the times (I know, that's not grammatically correct) and broken as a game some times more. The game's only redeeming feature is that it's so fun to play that it took a few of its 10 years for people to start noticing the cracks. But they are there.
Players don't often notice them - my players were perfectly happy casting God know how many Firestorms at the enemy thanks to power boosts they had collected - but even that is a crack in the game. The fact that they can do that... is it fair?
You've pointed out several continuity problems as well. For years we've been using the excuse that WHQ takes place in Warhammer's story's past, but there's simply no reason to keep doing that. Especially since it often makes things worse.
If you're interested in a few more specific reasons, check the first few posts of every thread. It's a simple enough process: I announce the pages and common problems with them and everyone else throws out other problems. After reading all that, I'd be interested in knowing if you still don't think we need a change.
The fact that we all want different things out of the new edition is a redeeming factor of the process - we will make sure that the results are balanced between our likes of speed or realism, fun or GMs bashing their heads against sharp things as the Quest Knight enters Day 3 of his settlement trip and hour of real time after he entered.
As for your second post, I certainly don't think the game should be much harder... after all, smashing the enemies is fun! As for gritier, that is a point I think we should argue.
Last edited by Black Drazon, 2/Jun/2005, 3:32 pm
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2/Jun/2005, 3:30 pm
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Aethys Starblade
Champion
Registered: 01-2005
Location: Aus, Tas
Posts: 24
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 Re: My take on 2nd Ed.
Hey
I mostly agree with BassJam. However, I and the Blades of Valour will never conform to any 2nd edition WQ.
The reasons are simple - we play a game that is already in line with the dark and gritty dark fantasy warhammer world, it is already high in action, high in adventure and high in roleplaying, and even high in realism due to our own additions to the game. It's fun, fast, easy to learn and highly addictive.
Background information is essential in the Blades, and we've already finished all the basic quests and have started our own roleplay adventures, making new rules and modifications as we see fit ( I am a GM of sorts.) We're finding ways to address many of the issues assosiated with the original, out of production WQ and giving it new life through an ongoing saga called 'Champions of the Deep.'
Having said all that, good luck with your Warhammer Quest 2nd edition.
Brother Andyn
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http://www.blacklibrary.com/forum/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=368
http://www.mystcommunity.com/board/index.php?showtopic=13312
Lone wolf, Lion heart
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11/Sep/2005, 12:01 am
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BassJam
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Registered: 07-2003
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 542
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Re: My take on 2nd Ed.
Crap. I'm not sure where to post this, so I'm posting it here. I only own 3 of the new Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay books, but I love the magic system so much that I'm smitten (I always hated that the WHQ Wizard class is an unbalanced joke flying in the face of the world's atmosphere.)
So now I know what I want, which is a fully-worked-out version of Warhammer Quest complete with the 100+ classes that my group chooses from. My game is currently still identifiably 1st Edition but I've felt the need to make the following changes:
1) Implemented current WFRP Insanity rules. Any arcane spellcaster that learns spells from more than one Lore of Magic (i.e. Wizard, Witch, Gypsy Nomad) gains 1d3 Insanity Points each time they level. Necromancers, Daemonologists, and Chaos Sorcerers do as well. If any character gains enough insanity points that they gain some mental condition, I'll simplify the WFRP rules a bit to make a chart more in the vein of MikeInside's Insanity rules.
2) The willy-nilly changing of the Winds of Magic from turn to turn is silly, imagine an arcane wind gusting and then going still that chaotically in a single location in every single dungeon. Also, the frequency of 1s rolled in random dungeons can get out of hand. My current system: Wizard character rolls the Power die each turn to see if there is a CHANGE in the Winds of Magic, which there is if he rolls a 1. He then rolls again to see what the Power Level is until further notice. (Yes, when the Wind of Magic is on 1, things will get quite ugly!)
3) Balancing this change is that another player or GM rolls every turn to see if there are Events. This happens if the GM rolls a 1 on a ten-sided die. (It used to be that separating the Random Event roll and Power Phase roll made Wizards too powerful - this is not an issue any more in my games due to the consequences in the new magic system.) Note that the Ogre character can be playable with this change as the chances are less of Ogre player and GM rolling doubles 
4) New WFRP casting rolls will be used to give a chance of spell failure. Novice spellcasters roll 1d10 when casting, 2-4 rolls 2d10, 6-8 rolls 3d10, Wizard Lords roll 4d10. If Power roll is 1, there is one less die to roll (minimum 1d10) and if Power roll is 6 there is an extra d10 (Tzeentch is watching!)
Explanation: Even if my player is a standard Wizard, casting spells per the normal rules, magic cannot be so inconsequential as the constant Healing Hands we are used to. So, for example, Quasar the 2nd level Wizard casts Healing Hands from his allotment of power as normal. However, he rolls 2d10 because if he were to roll double ones his spell would fail and he would gain an Insanity Point! If he rolls doubles of any other sort the Curse of Tzeentch takes effect and even though the Healing Hands spell works properly some unsought after effect may also come through the warp!
Extra dice rolling I'm afraid but I just don't want magic taken for granted any more! I thought hard about converting their spell system to WHQ's d6-based casting and turning Wizards into luck-based casters like the Ranger Mage, but it just wouldn't work. With six-siders, there would be far too many spell failures and Curse of Tzeentch rolls.
Questions/Stuff I still want to do:
1) In every other RP game, it takes time to cast spells, but in WHQ the Wizard can cast as MANY spells per Turn as he wants! It is never fair to the other Warriors after level 1 either. So, should I limit how many spells Wizards can cast per round like the Ranger Mage and Warrior Priest? Or should I go through each spell and detail a casting time?
2) Speaking of which, I am really wishing I had more time and energy to work on stuff, because I really would like to write a Tome of Magic similar to the one written for the Magus character. Basically, I want to map out an ultimate spell list, detailing EVERY spell from the first WHQ book as well as every other spell I've ever thought of giving to a character. Even the different names that differing schools of magic have for the same spells would be detailed! I want to include casting times (in case I implement them), spell ingredients (if casters use ingredients they would get either Power discount or a + to their casting roll), and I'd detail how much power the spell would cost for a Wizard-type and what the casting roll would be for a luck-based caster.
I am talking a HUGE grimoire here because I tend to include spells from D&D, Mongoose D&D supplements, WFRP, Mordheim, and Warhammer Fantasy Battle.
3) If my personal 2nd Edition was ever completed, I would like it codified in the same format as the original Roleplay Book with the Spell Grimoire being a separate printable book. The problem is, I am not interested in originality as much as in using whatever is best and right now I believe some of the WFRP ideas are top notch. I'm not sure how much I could then share with the world, as my game is currently so much of a blend.
If I was to write up these rules, I guess I could do it the way they do in the D&D open license books. "If you roll multiples on your d10s while casting, follow the rules for Chaos Manifestations (see Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, pages 142-143.) I'm not interested in plagiarism, and neither am I interested in veiling something that works great as is.
So, um, there's a long post for ya!
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"Mine is a high art. I wound with cruelty those who would harm me." - Archillicus
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28/Mar/2006, 4:57 pm
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Blackheart Ranger
Hero
Registered: 04-2005
Posts: 52
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Re: My take on 2nd Ed.
Hi. Its been a while since I was here.
To me, the 2nd ed. is polishing the org. rules.
House rules that for some reason will work better.
I play bye Initiative. I roll seperate dices for power and unex.events. I tur monsters gold into exp insted. Gold is someting u find, or get when u sell items.
I think that changeing the rules a lot, u might as well play WHFR or D&D.
So i think the work that has been done is great. Setting up "rules" for the 2nd ed. is a good idea, because it builds on many hours of "playtesting". I have only played up to level 6-7, and new ideas on what to come, and what might work, is allways welcome.
The 2nd ed. will also function as a guideline for new players.
I consider the 2nd ed. as houserules that long time players found better.
Imho
BlackH.R
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9/Apr/2007, 3:16 am
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