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Black Drazon Profile
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Lord

Registered: 04-2005
Posts: 217
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Re: WHQ 2nd Ed - Armour Issues


Okay, so let's put it out there so we can make sure we like it. I'm ignoring Criticals for just a moment - after all if the main system doesn't work, how will Criticals?

Here's the new process:

1) Roll To Hit. If successful...
2) Roll To Wound in the same fashion as WFB and Mordheim. If successful...
3) Roll an Armour Save in the system earlier proposed, assuming the victim has any. If successful/nonexistant...
4) Wound without strength/toughness modifiers, ie: Roll your DD and add any bonus damage (no traditional WHQ magic items have this ability, but I've seen a lot of it in articles involving sharpening swords and the like).
16/May/2005, 4:16 am Link to this post Send Email to Black Drazon   Send PM to Black Drazon
 
thecustodian Profile
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God

Registered: 04-2003
Location: The Temple
Posts: 809
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Re: WHQ 2nd Ed - Armour Issues


I really don't like the idea of rolling to wound. It just adds another layer to each fight. It's another roll for each attack of each model. Even in a small fight, it adds up. Is there really a problem with having it as it is now?

Besides, how would you do the Imperial Noble... emoticon
16/May/2005, 4:29 am Link to this post Send Email to thecustodian   Send PM to thecustodian
 
Boyinleaves Profile
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Hero

Registered: 05-2005
Posts: 59
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Re: WHQ 2nd Ed - Armour Issues


Yeah, I agree Custodian, rolling to wound and rolling for an armour save certainly would add up. Yet, I can remeber the first time I played WHQ, thinking that these rolls for damage dice and high wounds totals were an excessive part of the gameplay and thought they took forever, after having played WFB for quite a while. These days, It's just part and parcel of the game (and a necessary part, in my opinion).

There's no problem keeping the system the way it is, I was just thinking about someway we could introduce critical hits/wounds, without muddying up the waters for a lot of the rules for weapons that require a 6 to hit to be effective. I don't think that critical effects occurring on a 6 on the damage dice is the way to go, nor do I really feel that a 6 to hit really reflects a critical hit the way the WHQ rules are currently set up. As they are Strength and Toughness are close to meaningless for determining damage after battle level 2 or 3, and this is just a way they could be made as important as they are in other Warhammer games.

Anyway, if you don't like it, you don't like it, fair enough. But hey, let's keep it in mind for our playtest...

As to the Imperial Noble... I was under the impression we were doing away with pre-fab character packs...



Last edited by Boyinleaves, 16/May/2005, 6:45 pm
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ComicJam Profile
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Novice

Registered: 04-2005
Posts: 9
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Re: WHQ 2nd Ed - Armour Issues


I know I'm not really an major active person in this project, but I've just got some thoughts I'd like to share. You don't have to listen if you don't wish to. emoticon

- We could have a normal wound table like in WHFB, and armour increases toughness as usual, but doesn't give a saving throw.

- I play Confrontation (a Rackham games and they have some interesting wound systems. You can download the rules here: http://www.conf-federation.org.uk/Files/confrontation.pdf
Basically the wound table (found at the back of the book) has locations. To wound someone, roll 2d6. The lower number locates the wound (1=legs, 2=arms, 3=torso, 4-6=head). Add the two results together, add the attacker's strength and subtract the defender's resilience/toughness. Look at the table to gain the wound level.

Just something I thought was cool.

Cheers! emoticon
16/May/2005, 9:59 pm Link to this post Send Email to ComicJam   Send PM to ComicJam AIM MSN
 
Black Drazon Profile
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Lord

Registered: 04-2005
Posts: 217
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Re: WHQ 2nd Ed - Armour Issues


That's interesting, ComicJam, but I think we're all beyond the point where we're willing to accept another, more complicated system. We're just trying to make the damn criticals work. We may have no choice but to go back to To Hit rolls.

Even though the Noble no longer exists doesn't mean the Custodian can't use his abilities as a purchasable skill, especially since the currently frozen treasure discussion seems in favour of pushing skills over shiny things. Frankly though, I've never had the Noble pack and get frusterated whenever someone writes rules based on the assumption that everyone has it. I personally never saw the point in inviting the poncy Imperial git into my dungeons, anyway :P.
17/May/2005, 9:35 am Link to this post Send Email to Black Drazon   Send PM to Black Drazon
 
ComicJam Profile
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Novice

Registered: 04-2005
Posts: 9
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Re: WHQ 2nd Ed - Armour Issues


How about if you roll a '6' to wound, you get a critical hit, allowing you to roll another die. If however, the second die comes up as a '1' no damage is caused...

Alternatively, each weapon could have a "critical hit" value which has the same effect as rolling a '6' in the idea above. E.g. a sword with "Crit. 4+" would allow a player to roll an additional die for damage. Note that the player does not have to re-roll if he does not wish to. Also remember that a '1' on this additional die results in no damage.

Just a thought... ???

Cheers! emoticon

Last edited by ComicJam, 17/May/2005, 6:52 pm
17/May/2005, 6:45 pm Link to this post Send Email to ComicJam   Send PM to ComicJam AIM MSN
 
Black Drazon Profile
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Lord

Registered: 04-2005
Posts: 217
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Re: WHQ 2nd Ed - Armour Issues


These ideas have already been explored, ComicJam. What we need right now is for someone to state their opinion about whether or not we need a To Wound roll. Boyinleaves makes the excellent point that S and T sort of fall behind after the early levels and I think we should discuss whether or not this warrants changing the system.
18/May/2005, 6:49 am Link to this post Send Email to Black Drazon   Send PM to Black Drazon
 
golembane Profile
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Lord

Registered: 08-2004
Posts: 100
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Re: WHQ 2nd Ed - Armour Issues


So I have been thinking about this topic....

Thus why I have been pretty silent recently.

Anyways think about the deathblow rules as they are now... great against hoards and already weaked foes correct?

So how many hoard type mobs do you run into past the first few levels?

How many super tough mobs (ie: dragons) do you expect to deathblow when fighting them?

I think my point is starting to come across. Now for armor and toughness.

Now most of the mordheim and crits I've been suggesting rely on giving the player more damamge potential.

Take a normal crit that does damage times 2 without armor. This is simple and straight to the point. No issue.

Now with mobs that get crited with double damage WITH armor saves. So I hit the mob and crit. I then roll my D6 for dmg and add in any modifiers to say equal 10 dmg... this then get multipled by 2 to be 20 dmg.

merely subtract the mobs toughness(which current system would have to be reworked slightly) and you have total wounds.

If you use that same scenario, but this time the player only manages to hit. Nothing fancy. He deals 10 wounds minus the creatures toughness. He may only get 1-2 wounds on some mobs.

If you would normally require a 6 to-hit a mob anyways then there is no chance of doing a criticale hit and thus you have to rely on pure luck of the die(hey pick a fight with a deamon @ BL 3 and be prepared to fight for your life).

This makes any type crit useful without completely having to rewrite what we currently have.

PC armor wouldn't change much but their innate toughness would have to increase a bit to stay inline with the mobs toughness being raised as well.

So the system I'd be proposing in summary:

1) Strength would remain pretty much the same for both PC and NPC

2) PC toughness would be raised slightly to allow them to scale evenly with the monsters damage output.

3) Armor would add to toughness much like todays system.

4) Can not critical hit a monster which would require you to hit on a 6 normally.

5) Would have to-hit rolls and damage rolls but no to-wound rolls should we edit each monster and player toughnes to the correct level of play.

So with minor work we could make a damage minus toughness sytem hold true, while keeping the new weapon based criticals important in the roles which they were meant to fullfill.
18/May/2005, 11:58 pm Link to this post Send Email to golembane   Send PM to golembane
 
thecustodian Profile
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God

Registered: 04-2003
Location: The Temple
Posts: 809
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Re: WHQ 2nd Ed - Armour Issues


That sounds pretty good.
19/May/2005, 12:01 am Link to this post Send Email to thecustodian   Send PM to thecustodian
 
SanFongLong Profile
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Novice

Registered: 05-2005
Posts: 7
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Re: WHQ 2nd Ed - Armour Issues


Hi there, I recently stumbled onto this site after being a long time WHQ player.
 My friends and I adapted a system similarl to a suggestion posted earlier. WHFB armour saves, rolls to wound (using S vs.T) and then rolling DD to see how many wounds were taken off. This worked well for us and admittedly let us use our characters in WHFB easier (especially for skirmish battles leading up to dungeons).
 I've got to admit I'm a fan of the Mordheim system too, even though I don't have the game. I feel letting your character get permanent injuries makes the game a lot more characterful. Stuns and Knockdowns aren't a bad thing either but TOA needs to be adjusted if it gets used.
 We also adapted the system so against 'uber' monsters where armour was useless we would use the added toughness from armour *.5 to modify the wounding on the DD rolls, after all armour does still make it harder to kill someone.
 Sure it adds risk but I've had all my classes reach level 10 at least once.
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