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Black Drazon
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Registered: 04-2005
Posts: 217
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Re: WHQ 2nd Ed - Armour Issues
I don't know how much I can approve changing the Warrior's toughness. GW went to extremes over the 6th Edition conversion over Toughness globalization. And don't start to argue that warriors come from tougher stock. Elves in WHFB have Toughness 3. Malekith has Toughness 3. So does Tyrion. If there's going to be an exception, it'll be with Orion because he's half God (the Wood Elf book isn't out yet).
Otherwise, good. See my new thread.
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19/May/2005, 4:53 pm
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BassJam
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Registered: 07-2003
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 542
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Re: WHQ 2nd Ed - Armour Issues
Chiming in as I've never once had a problem with armored Dwarves (perhaps I am cruel GM :bad: ?) :
1) I like the current Armor system. When I adapt armors from WFB I just make stuff match up to what's in the shops. (i.e. save of 2+ in WFB = 2 or 3 points of Armor in WHQ)
2) Stats should not progress ridiculously as BD and golembane point out (unless magically enhanced!) - I recommend using modded Mordheim's system (including stat limits by race) if you go with stat advances and customizible characters.
3) I've outlined part of my crit system before, a simplified version would work. basic features include:
a)Can not crit a target that requires 4 or more to hit.
b)Crits are only possible if a natural '6' is rolled to hit.
c)If the above conditions are made we have a choice: Either target gets a saving throw or attacker has to succeed in a second attack roll to represent critical threat being fulfilled. Anything else makes crits to common on a six-sided die!
d)If there is a crit, then over and above all effects and damage, there is one automatic Wound on target (to make sure the crit is effective even against armored and pain ignoring targets!)
---
"Mine is a high art. I wound with cruelty those who would harm me." - Archillicus
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2/Jun/2005, 8:57 am
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Black Drazon
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Registered: 04-2005
Posts: 217
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Re: WHQ 2nd Ed - Armour Issues
Ah! Racial maximums, interesting. Please, remember to bring that up when we invariably shoot down Monty Haul Treasure in favour of better character development.
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2/Jun/2005, 2:00 pm
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SanFongLong
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Registered: 05-2005
Posts: 7
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Re: WHQ 2nd Ed - Armour Issues
Some friends and I are trying to incorporate all the suggested rules or those that have some consensus at the moment and we would like to know if this is basically the combat situation at the moment:
1) Roll to hit
2) Roll to wound
3) Roll for armour saves
4) Roll DD+S
5) Deduct from Wounds+T
Finally, see if anyone has carked it, right?
By the way, we aren't using magic, we're staying right away from that tinder box at the moment.
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5/Jun/2005, 1:23 pm
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SanFongLong
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Registered: 05-2005
Posts: 7
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Re: WHQ 2nd Ed - Armour Issues
Some friends and I are trying to incorporate all the suggested rules or those that have some consensus at the moment and we would like to know if this is basically the combat situation at the moment:
1) Roll to hit
2) Roll to wound
3) Roll for armour saves
4) Roll DD+S
5) Deduct from Wounds+T
Finally, see if anyone has carked it, right?
By the way, we aren't using magic or criticals yet, we're staying right away from that tinder box at the moment.
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5/Jun/2005, 1:24 pm
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Sudden Real
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Registered: 12-2003
Posts: 104
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Re: WHQ 2nd Ed - Armour Issues
To be honest, I'm not sure if this will solve the initial problem (the Dwarf tank). Let's see if I get this straight... the better the armour, the better the save, right? The Dwarf could wear the best armour, and that made him hard to kill, but even with this new system, he would have the best save, making him still hard to kill... which means, back to square one...
I've seen a lot of discussion on how the Deathblow really works (don't worry, I won't drag this back into the game), but I'm a bit confused about his chainmail as well... normal chainmail (in real life) can be worn under an armour, so can a Dwarf keep his chainmail if he wears another set of armour? If not, that would bring his toughness down one point (still counting old school, just out of ease), which can reduce his tank problem, or was that already taken in account?
I'm not really sure how it works, to be honest, and I think I'll start counting the chainmail as a full set of armour, just to reduce the tank problem.
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5/Jun/2005, 1:49 pm
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golembane
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Registered: 08-2004
Posts: 100
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Re: WHQ 2nd Ed - Armour Issues
Dwarf has all the rights in the world to wear the heaviest possible armor. They are like living tanks anyways.
What you are missing is the fact that a fully geared dwarf under the normal rules can become high unstoppable. So in the new system we are trying to redo he would still be a good powerhouse of health and armor, but still far more mortal then he'd like to be.
As for chainmail and whatnot... Thats a bit to much indepth for the aspects of the game. Just limiting to light, medium, heavy armor or various designs and saves is much easier then trying to find ways to mix and match for the best possible outcomes.
The min-maxers would sit there forever working a way to make another nigh unstoppable dwarf by saying leather armor covered by chainmail thats under a plate chest peice gives... UBER save.
Like I said. Best to limit the option to make the game roll fast and roll to the point and heart of which it is to be played.
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5/Jun/2005, 11:06 pm
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Sudden Real
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Registered: 12-2003
Posts: 104
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Re: WHQ 2nd Ed - Armour Issues
A fully geared Dwarf is indeed unstoppable but very slow... With a plate armour, a great shield and a warhelm his total toughness would be 13 (dropping his chainmail and from lvl 3, as I don't think a lvl 1 or 2 Dwarf can afford all this stuff), but his movement would be -2 and he would be -1 to hit. Sure, uber tank, but not one I would want in my party. I want my tanks in front of me, not three rooms behind me. A faster tank would be a Dwarf with a heavy armour and a normal shield, bringing his toughness on 11 (only 2 points difference, but easier to wound none the less, especially since on higher lvls fewer monsters have only one damage die), but then again, armed with the same stuff, the Barbarian would have "only" a toughness off 10 (since his base toughness is only one lower than a Dwarf's) and movement -1, but, if he's lucky, he can counter that with the skill Run, bringing his movement on 6.
As far as magical armour, I only found three armours that are worth mentioning (in the Roleplay book anyway, haven't had the chance yet to go through the treasure cards) namely the Grey Armour of Eshkalon which can give a toughness up to 6 (!) and which is a normal treasure, the Armour of Taakan, which is a full body suit, meaning armour AND helm, and (apart from it's special skill) gives the same bonus (and penalty) of a heavy armour and warhelm (+5 toughness and -1 movement), and lastthe Armour of Dargan, which gives +4 toughness. Last two are objective room treasures so making them rare, especially with the encumberance rules.
If you really want to go against the tank character (be it Dwarf or Barbarian), get them where it hurts, their finances. Make them sell treasure to get the stuff they need to survive, and they will think twice to decide if they will buy more healing stuff or blow 4000 on an heavy armour. Because if you'll have to wait until you find one of those two armours in an objective room, well, you could have to wait a long time, because you only have one chance on 36 to find one. And if you're in a party with a Dwarf and a Barbarian, that means two people have te be served...
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6/Jun/2005, 12:34 am
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Black Drazon
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Registered: 04-2005
Posts: 217
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Re: WHQ 2nd Ed - Armour Issues
I think we need to see the results of the simulation before throwing out even more speculation surrounding armour and its solutions. I know it's taking a while but I had a little trouble working out how to get these darn skills to work in.... I'll have it soon. Maybe not the Elf's results, but soon.
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6/Jun/2005, 4:14 am
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Boyinleaves
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Registered: 05-2005
Posts: 59
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Re: WHQ 2nd Ed - Armour Issues
Please please please let us get away from having multitudes of finicky pieces of armour. Mordheim's system is fantastic. One piece of armour, a shield perhaps, and a helmet that does nothing to modify toughness. Keep it simple, keep it so that evey character can easily follow the same rules for armour and their personal restrictions, keep it so that the rules are never in any doubt.
The general opinion on treasure so far is that magical items should be exceedingly rare, and thus characters should rely on their purchased equipment and skills far more than they do currently. Any kind of armour better than what one can purchase in a settlement should be undeniably rare, and as Sudden says, good armour should be really really expensive, and require much deliberation before purchasing it.
The Dwarf is supposed to be a tank, but there is always a chance that any monster, no matter how puny, will injure him. Armour saves allow this. Even if the Dwarf has a 2+ save, this should be acceptable if he's facing hordes of weak enemies. He's not likely at all to be injured by them, but may be just unlucky enough to have one blow land in the right place, and I for one feel that that is appropriate. Lets not forget too, that in most WH games a monster's high strength makes a substantial dent into an armour save. In Mordheim, specific weapons such as axes and those made of Gromril impose an additional armour save penalty to their targets. This sort of rule would make Dwarves even more mortal against foes so armed.
One other thing. Any kind of armour that slows a character or inhibits their movement in any way should have some sort of Initiative penalty associated with it as well, not just a movement one. Some armour types mention this (particularly in Mordheim) but many don't. Dwarves would be somewhat less susceptible to these initiative penalties, as they are so used to wearing armour, but not completely immune, making them more reliant on soaking up damage as their turns would come later.
BassJam, although I like your concept of Criticals only occurring when the attacker's weapon skill is superior, I would still prefer to see a roll to wound incorporated into the combat system, upon which the chance to critically wound would be based. Your idea could certainly come into play. I have been mulling over some critical hit tables for weapon types that include a lot of concepts from Mordheim such as stunning, and from the critical rules in one of the Deathblows, with things like piercing for polearms. I would perhaps have a critical occur on a 6 to wound (as long as a 6 isn't necessary to wound) and have the roll on the critical table, on which there would be results such as being stunned, cleaving blows (allows a deathblow) etc., at a bonus/penalty dependent on the relative weapon skills of the attacker and defender. Even if a critical hit occurs, a low roll on a critical table would naturally indicate that nothing much more has occured than causing an extra wound or two. I hope that is all comprehensible, I'm in a rush. Exams beckon. 
EDIT: and dammit, I can't help speculation BD, it's more fun than real life at the moment  Sorry...
Last edited by Boyinleaves, 6/Jun/2005, 11:13 am
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6/Jun/2005, 11:12 am
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