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Mark Gunton Profile
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Registered: 05-2009
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Re: Flamers of Tzeentch


quote:

Jerv wrote:

I dont like the rolling to hit idea. And one more thing, leaving wizard in back room is good but in that case you should draw a warrior counter to determine which room will be set on fire - just like events when warriors are not on the same board section. Dont you thik that?





Not really, Jervon. I know that Flamers are Daemons of Tzeentch and all, but I dbout they are able to conjure flames beyond the room they are currently in.


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OldWarrior Profile
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Re: Flamers of Tzeentch


quote:

Mark Gunton wrote:

quote:

Jerv wrote:

I dont like the rolling to hit idea. And one more thing, leaving wizard in back room is good but in that case you should draw a warrior counter to determine which room will be set on fire - just like events when warriors are not on the same board section. Dont you thik that?





Not really, Jervon. I know that Flamers are Daemons of Tzeentch and all, but I dbout they are able to conjure flames beyond the room they are currently in.



The special rule for the Flamers is very clear that they set the same board section alite with the flames. So, the Wizard staying back strategy is definitely one way of countering these attacks. It can be a bit risky, but the potential danger sneaking up behind me is not nearly so certain as the Flamers I actually see before me! emoticon

EDIT: It seems I have been misreading the Flamers' special rule for a number of years now. It is supposed to be the board section upon which the Warriors stand...

Last edited by OldWarrior, 1/Jun/2009, 3:05 am


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Jerv Profile
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Re: Flamers of Tzeentch


quote:

OldWarrior wrote:

quote:

Mark Gunton wrote:

quote:

Jerv wrote:

I dont like the rolling to hit idea. And one more thing, leaving wizard in back room is good but in that case you should draw a warrior counter to determine which room will be set on fire - just like events when warriors are not on the same board section. Dont you thik that?





Not really, Jervon. I know that Flamers are Daemons of Tzeentch and all, but I dbout they are able to conjure flames beyond the room they are currently in.



The special rule for the Flamers is very clear that they set the same board section alite with the flames. So, the Wizard staying back strategy is definitely one way of countering these attacks. It can be a bit risky, but the potential danger sneaking up behind me is not nearly so certain as the Flamers I actually see before me! emoticon



The special rule for Flamers says that they set on fire ANY board section that the warriors stand on. Then you are taking as many D6 as many flamers you have and roll those dices for every model on the board that was set on fire - and it can be any board that the warriors stand on. So there is nothing about seting on fire only the board occuped by flamers. There is additonal rule that says that flamers are immune to the fire but still nothing about that they can only set on fire the board that they are standing on.

Last edited by Jerv, 1/Jun/2009, 1:04 am
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Mark Gunton Profile
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Re: Flamers of Tzeentch


So you're saying that if my Chaos Warrior with his Eyes of Fire mutation went off down another branch in the dungeon to the rest of the party and the party then got ambushed by the Flamers, he would suddenly be engulfed in pink and purple flames?
I think this would have to be a judgement call, because it makes the Flamers exceptionally powerful, even for Level 3. They attack out of Ambush automatically, they hit automatically for (no. of Flamers)D6 Wounds and they can attack every warrior without line of sight/area of effect.
Can the attack be dodged? (I'm guessing no).


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OldWarrior Profile
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Re: Flamers of Tzeentch


quote:

Jerv wrote:

The special rule for Flamers says that they set on fire ANY board section that the warriors stand on. Then you are taking as many D6 as many flamers you have and roll those dices for every model on the board that was set on fire - and it can be any board that the warriors stand on. So there is nothing about seting on fire only the board occuped by flamers. There is additonal rule that says that flamers are immune to the fire but still nothing about that they can only set on fire the board that they are standing on.



Oops! You are right! I was remembering incorrectly. I have reread the special rule (for the 50th time probably in my life) and it does NOT specifically say "the board section (or same board section) where the Flamers are". It actually says "they set light to any board section that the Warriors are standing on".

This would make them more dangerous than the way I have been playing them. However, if the Warriors are divided up between two or three board sections, then it seems that a Warrior counter should be used to determine which board section is set on fire. A further possible application - in my opinion - of the rule would be that a Warrior counter be drawn for each Flamer to see which Warrior(s) (and consequently which board sections) they will be attacking.

Of course, following the Lantern rules at the same time would require that the leader be in the middle board section if the Warriors were spread out over three sections. This would be a very dangerous situation if other monsters arrived as well...

quote:

Mark Gunton wrote

I think this would have to be a judgement call, because it makes the Flamers exceptionally powerful, even for Level 3. They attack out of Ambush automatically, they hit automatically for (no. of Flamers)D6 Wounds and they can attack every warrior without line of sight/area of effect.
Can the attack be dodged? (I'm guessing no).



The Flamers ambush on a 1D6 roll of 5+, still that is about 33% of the time. Very dangerous indeed!

Yes, as the rule is written, it seems that they can target any board section in the dungeon as long as a Warrior is standing in that section.

However, I am in favor of imposing a house rule which states that they must have Line of Sight to the targeted board section. I have been considering requiring line of sight for all monster spell castors too.

I also think that the attack could not be dodged, because it is both a magical and area effect attack.

In reference to the Flamers being immune to their own fire AND the fact that the rule specifies "each model on that board section" for Flamer damage (instead of "every Warrior"): I have found that the Flamers' attacks are quite useful in getting rid of hordes of monsters and of greatly weakening tougher monsters. So, their special attacks are just as devastating for the monsters as for the Warriors when there are more than one group of monsters present.

Last edited by OldWarrior, 1/Jun/2009, 2:51 am


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RedDog3 Profile
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Re: Flamers of Tzeentch


The entry is a little quirky. Here is the explanation from the book:
Flamers never make a normal hand-to-hand attack. Instead, they set light to any board section that the Warriors are standing on, immolating the area with the pink fire of Tzeentch. Roll 1D6 per Flamer for each model on that board section to determine how many Wounds it suffers (normal modifiers for
Toughness and armour apply). If there are 5 Flamers attacking, for instance, roll 5D6 for each model on that board section.

Each Flamer can make this attack once per turn (unless of course it Ambushes successfully) and they themselves are immune to the fire's effects."


It says that the damage is limited to 1d6 for each flamer in the board section. If the party can move out of the board section occupied by the Flamers, they will avoid the attack (no flamers on the board section equals no damage)...but it also means that since there are no Warriors on the same section as the Flamer, they will not fry the Monsters as well.

This is also important when the monsters end up filling the room and leaking out into adjacent halls and rooms.
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OldWarrior Profile
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Re: Flamers of Tzeentch


Wow! We posted at the same time, RedDog3. emoticon

I think you are misunderstanding the rule the same as I have done for several years.

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Jerv Profile
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Re: Flamers of Tzeentch


quote:

RedDog3 wrote:

The entry is a little quirky. Here is the explanation from the book:
Flamers never make a normal hand-to-hand attack. Instead, they set light to any board section that the Warriors are standing on, immolating the area with the pink fire of Tzeentch. Roll 1D6 per Flamer for each model on that board section to determine how many Wounds it suffers (normal modifiers for
Toughness and armour apply). If there are 5 Flamers attacking, for instance, roll 5D6 for each model on that board section.

Each Flamer can make this attack once per turn (unless of course it Ambushes successfully) and they themselves are immune to the fire's effects."


It says that the damage is limited to 1d6 for each flamer in the board section. If the party can move out of the board section occupied by the Flamers, they will avoid the attack (no flamers on the board section equals no damage)...but it also means that since there are no Warriors on the same section as the Flamer, they will not fry the Monsters as well.

This is also important when the monsters end up filling the room and leaking out into adjacent halls and rooms.



For me - and for OldWarrior from today emoticon - it's look like that:

Flamers make special attack by seting the entire room in fire. To chceck witch room it will be - following by this rule: "they set light to any board section that the Warriors are standing on" - you have to check how many rooms the heroes occupy, if it is one then its all clear if it is more then one room then you have to draw a warrior counter to determine witch room will be on fire. That's all for determinig the target of attack becouse next sentence in that ability description says about dealing the damage not targeting - as most people thinks.
So dealing damage, rule say: "Roll 1D6 per Flamer (thats it about Flamers, and there is nothing about that they have to be on the same board section) for each model on THAT (on the board that was previously specifed) board section to determine how many Wounds it suffers (normal modifiers for
Toughness and armour apply)."

So ther is nothing about leaving the board like You said.

Hey gus do you realy understand what i write? emoticon
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OldWarrior Profile
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Re: Flamers of Tzeentch


Now see here! I am always trying to point out - in different ways - to the players in my games that if they will read the rules it will help them understand what is going on. Then I sometimes discover that I have misread the rules. This is why it is good to have these discussions, it forces me to pay better attention! emoticon

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Mark Gunton Profile
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Re: Flamers of Tzeentch


Yeah.
Flamers == very scary Level 3 monsters.

My excuse is that I don't have my copy of the rules to hand and that I (sob) haven't played in over eight years. Nonetheless, it's still double jeopardy when it comes to Flamers: either stay together and get toasted as a group or scatter and risk one group being incinerated before the other. Still harsh, especially if your healer is not top notch.


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