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God

Registered: 04-2006
Location: USA, Western hemisphere, earth
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Revising the Pit Fighter


(EDITED to add a link to the final revision document)

Pit Fighter: Community Revisions
(Completed, for nowemoticon)


Among some gaming friends I have volunteered to try to revise the Pit Fighter to help make him more balanced. Obviously, this would then be an official Warrior with custom modifications (or with integrated house rules).

Listed below are some issues that I am sure we will likely have some agreement upon and some disagreement. I will give some of my ideas -- if I have any for how to revise the particulars, but I would really like to hear as many people's opinions as would like to voice them. Thecustodian, for instance, said something about having some ideas for revising the Pit Fighter's armour. It is doubtful we will come to full agreement on everything, but I believe the end result could be a much better Pit Fighter.

If I do this revision, I would do my best to try to represent a "consensus" of the opinions expressed.

If I were to disagree too much with the outcome, I would just be sure to play some solo games where I play my own Pit Fighter the way I want. emoticon

I do NOT here address every issue concerning the Pit Fighter, so please bring any other concerns and post them. I am only trying to address some of the things I have heard or read and maybe one or two things which I anticipate might be of concern.


Pit Fighter's Debt - I really believe that this was intended to help balance him in reference to his tendency to slay many monsters. I do not think however that the fairly small chance of getting into serious trouble for not paying "enough" (as in 500 gold per BL) on his debt is enough of an incentive to do so.

Proposed Change - I suggest that the Pit Figher be required to have paid at least 500 gold on his debt before he is allowed to gain each level. It would be something like the following:

Level Gained _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Total Debt Payment

2 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ 500
3 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ 1000
4 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ 1500
5 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ 2000

and etc.... until his debt is fully paid
at which time he would be a free man,
free to train like any other Warrior.




Reaction Skill - I don't necessarily think this should be revised, but if it were to be revised, I would recommend that it be more difficult starting out. Maybe we could change it to only being successful on a natural 6 for BL's 1-4 and then work like the original rule on 5 or 6 at BL's 5-10.

There is too the aspect of whether it works only for Unexpected Monster Events (basic rules) or for every Monster Event (room events included, which is the advanced rule). I think this is more of a GM-determined/interpreted issue currently. Yet, it might be worth discussing anyway since there are a goodly number additionaly Monster Events if the PF is allowed to react to ALL Monster Events.


Pit Armour - Original rules are: 1. Basic rule: Pit Armour gives him +1 T; 2. Advanced Rule: Each piece of Pit Armour only covers a portion of his body corresponding to his attacker's to hit die roll. The PF must choose which portion of his body (monster's to hit #) is covered by each piece. He must also spend a lot of gold (400 for each piece) to get his entire body covered. That is 1600 gold more for four more pieces in addition to his beginning Pit Armour. This could prove interesting when fighting Trolls which vomit all over his nice new Pit Armour!

I personally don't see a need to modify this, because I think this helps to offset the PF's tendency to get more monster kills than the average Warrior. And, all this gold spent for protection only gives him a possible total of +1 T versus each attack. I think also that this was intended to encourage the PF to spend training points on additional Toughness.


Fist Spike - grants +2 Attacks, but these attacks do NOT allow a death-blow. Also, the PF has the special ability while using Fist Spikes to step into the just-killed monster's square and continue his attacks from there. This provides a unique fighting experience that almost no other Warrior enjoys. (some skills might be similar, like Blood-Fever, a possible acquired skill for a Dwarf or a Trollslayer)

I think the Fist Spike is a fairly balanced weapon already, because most other Warriors can kill up to eight monsters with one attack by way of death-blows (according to the original death-blow rule) -- assuming they were surrounded by monsters easy enough to kill; whereas, the PF can only kill up to three in one turn with his Fist Spike. There is the added benefit versus a single tougher monster, that he would get to attack three times versus another player's single attack.

This leads right into the second weapon he carries...


Pit Flail - grants +2 Strength (for total of 5 Str at BL 1) for damage and can do a death-blow like most other weapons in the game. The big drawback is that if he gets a 1 to hit, he hits himself for the same damage instead of just missing his target.

I seldom use the Pit Flail myself, but I like the option and versatility of it. I think it gives a little depth to the Pit Fighter character and makes the player have to think a little bit.


Heal-Itt Potion - We all know how it works I think. I think the original equipment (only one to begin) is plenty and rather exciting to see in action during the first one to two adventures in which the Warriors are usually constantly fighting for their very lives.

16.7% chance of running out when the PF drinks it, and 33.3% chance of running out when anyone else drinks it -- seems fair to me.

Buying Heal-Itt Potions - Originally, there are 1D6 available in a Fighting School on a stock roll of 8. They only cost 50 gold each. This is a very special deal!

Proposed change: I think these powerful potions should cost 150 gold each (or more, any suggestions?). Also, I say that there should only be 1D3 available in each settlement's Fighting School with no stock roll needed OR 1D3 (or even 1D3+1) available on the stock roll of 8.


TRAINING

I recommend that the point system be basically left alone.

Damage Dice

However, I agree with Thecustodian and others that the PF should only be able to increase his Damage Dice by one at BL 5 and BL 9, or at any BL thereafter. In other words, he should never have a characteristic/base Damage Dice number greater than 1 until BL 5 and no greater than 2 until BL 9, after which he cannot gain any more.

By this method he must still spend the 6 Training Points in order to gain these increases, but, he does NOT have to purchase a Damage Dice as soon as he is allowed to do so. For instance, if he wanted to increase his Strength and Weapon Skill instead (costing 6 points) he could do so, and then increase his DD next time around.

(EDIT on 30/11/2008 -- added the following paragraph)
I might have been slightly wrong about Thecustodian's opinion about the Damage Dice. In reply to this topic, he suggested being able to get another damage dice one level earlier than other Warriors. I like this suggestion. It seems more in line with the rugged all-out fighters in Webquest especially with the Trollslayer and the Wardancer, who get some damage dice upgrades earlier than others do.


Additional Fighting School Weapons

Someone has mentioned to me that the PF's Knee Spikes (if he can purchase them) make him too powerful along with his three Fist Spike Attacks. I disagree, because they do NOT grant death-blows, do NOT have the step-in ability that the Fist Spikes have, AND because other Warriors can get treaures that give just as much (in some cases even more) advantage in combat.

Remember that a Blade of Leaping Gold grants +3 Attacks AND can do death-blows as well. So, a BL 3 Barbarian that has gone berserk has 2 base attacks + his 1 berserk attack and 3 additional attacks from this treasure sword. That is a total of SIX attacks that can do death-blows. These are all at the full Barbarian str 4. If he is surrounded by EIGHT orcs, they are in trouble -- or even Black Orcs for that matter (unless he rolls like the infamous Carras in The War to End All Orcs campaign game emoticon).

A BL 3 Pit Fighter in the above scenario using a Fist Spike and two Knee Spikes and let's say an additional attack gained from training would also have SIX attacks. However, none of these attacks could death-blow and two of them only have a Strength of 2 (Knee Spikes). As long as the Damage Dice modification has been made, I don't think the Pit Fighter (which is basically a different type of Barbarian) would really have much advantage over a normal Barbarian that has accumulated some treasure weapons AND armour that the PF cannot wear.

Really though, the above scenario is not likely to happen exactly that way. I only use it to try to show that there are other variables in the game that make complete balance to be very hard to achieve. Yes, I am aware that I did not mention in that scenario that the PF might have reacted quickly. He could also have done nothing for an entire turn (rolling a 1 on his quick reaction table) while the Barbarian killed eight monsters.*

*Note: I think I would rather be a dwarf though (except when he trips on his beard). emoticon

Last edited by OldWarrior, 6/Feb/2009, 4:43 am


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Old Warrior

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11/Nov/2008, 4:02 pm Link to this post Send Email to OldWarrior   Send PM to OldWarrior Blog
 
OldWarrior Profile
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God

Registered: 04-2006
Location: USA, Western hemisphere, earth
Posts: 1283
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Re: Revising the Pit Fighter


Opinions please. emoticon

As you can tell, I do not lack for having my own opinions, but I thought it would be good to get several other people's points of view. Even if you only have an opinion on one detail of the Pit Fighter, it could give me another angle to consider and make the end product more interesting and/or balanced.

Last edited by OldWarrior, 15/Nov/2008, 12:45 am


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15/Nov/2008, 12:44 am Link to this post Send Email to OldWarrior   Send PM to OldWarrior Blog
 
Sardaukar74 Profile
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Lord

Registered: 09-2008
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Re: Revising the Pit Fighter


Sounds like a good and reasonable update for the Pit Fighter. Changing the price and availability of the Healitt Potion as well as limiting the damage dice will be something I'm going to implement in my custom version of WQ.
Are there any changes to other official warriors you are using for reasons of game balance?
21/Nov/2008, 7:48 pm Link to this post Send Email to Sardaukar74   Send PM to Sardaukar74
 
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Registered: 04-2003
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Re: Revising the Pit Fighter


Since one week , I am saying I must write something on this thread
So here is it

- Damage dice like the outlaw will be perfect
- Heal itt, 1000 gold seems a good price
- Certainely need to revise a bit the skill 'surehanded
- I think the debt must be paid completely at the level 5. (if the debt was 6000) before level 2 if the debt was 1000

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Sardaukar74 Profile
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Registered: 09-2008
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Re: Revising the Pit Fighter


quote:

- Damage dice like the outlaw will be perfect



I don't know this warrior. Do you know where I can find the rules for him?

Regarding 'sure-handed': Does this skill make him too powerful?
22/Nov/2008, 10:35 pm Link to this post Send Email to Sardaukar74   Send PM to Sardaukar74
 
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Re: Revising the Pit Fighter


The Pit fighter is one of the Warrior of Games Workshop
Try the pit website in warriors section

Last edited by Bruno, 23/Nov/2008, 3:48 pm


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OldWarrior Profile
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God

Registered: 04-2006
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Re: Revising the Pit Fighter


quote:

Sardaukar74 wrote:

Sounds like a good and reasonable update for the Pit Fighter. Changing the price and availability of the Healitt Potion as well as limiting the damage dice will be something I'm going to implement in my custom version of WQ.
Are there any changes to other official warriors you are using for reasons of game balance?




There isn't a lot of modifications I have done to the official Warriors -- I don't think. I do have some house rules that I think help to balance the game over all.

Then there is the Wizard... lol If people think the Pit Fighter is over-powered, they must certainly see the Wizard in all his glory!

I hope to re-vise the Wizard as well, but the Pit Fighter seems an easier target for now.

I have a rule that all spell casters (Wizard is the prime suspect) can only cast Attack spells during their Warrior's own turn within the Warrior Phase. In other words, I do NOT allow a spell caster to cast an attack spell upon a monster immediately after the Dwarf just reduced it to 1 Wound -- unless it is that spell caster's turn.

Besides the Wizard and Pit Fighter, I am of the opinion that most of the other Official Warriors are more or less balanced. I am not advocating complete balance, because I think that really takes away from the variety of the game.

One thing I do to help balance the game is to use my own Battle-Level 1, First Adventure Monster Tables. It isn't perfect perhaps, but I like it. If you read the notes given there it explains what I was trying to do by developing those tables.

One thing it does, hopefully, is give the players a greater possible variety of monsters for each first adventure -- instead of the same Event Deck generated ones. I just use the Event Deck (or rather the java-based simulator) to determine whether it is an event or monsters, and then I roll on my monster table.

After the first adventure, I usually switch back to using the RolePlay Book Monster Tables, unless the Warriors suffered so terribly that they can barely bolster themselves up to face another dungeon.


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24/Nov/2008, 9:28 am Link to this post Send Email to OldWarrior   Send PM to OldWarrior Blog
 
OldWarrior Profile
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God

Registered: 04-2006
Location: USA, Western hemisphere, earth
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Re: Revising the Pit Fighter


quote:

Sardaukar74 wrote:

quote:

- Damage dice like the outlaw will be perfect



I don't know this warrior. Do you know where I can find the rules for him?

Regarding 'sure-handed': Does this skill make him too powerful?



The Outlaw was in one of the magazines (Deathblow maybe?). I know it was in the issue immediately before the one which had the Bounty Hunter.

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Old Warrior

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24/Nov/2008, 9:32 am Link to this post Send Email to OldWarrior   Send PM to OldWarrior Blog
 
thecustodian Profile
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God

Registered: 04-2003
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Re: Revising the Pit Fighter


Regarding the Armour - I think it would be good for it to be fully modular. I rememeber writing up a proposal which I now can't find. It suggested that the basic suit gave you +1 Toughness on all locations. You could buy additional armour for each arm, the torso, head, etc, or specialised items like the spiked boots which give you +1 Attack per Combat (surprise attack), or a Fear-inducing mask instead of a helmet...
I think that'd be a bit more fun.
24/Nov/2008, 10:29 am Link to this post Send Email to thecustodian   Send PM to thecustodian
 
OldWarrior Profile
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God

Registered: 04-2006
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Re: Revising the Pit Fighter


quote:

Sardaukar74 wrote:

quote:

- Damage dice like the outlaw will be perfect



I don't know this warrior. Do you know where I can find the rules for him?

Regarding 'sure-handed': Does this skill make him too powerful?



Hmmm... I don't know about too powerful. The Trollslayer has a similar one: Ambidextrious.

Does anyone have some suggestions on the revision of the Sure-handed skill? I hadn't really thought about the skills that the Pit Fighter can acquired during training.

I often would hope for the quick medication one, but mostly I would just spend my PF's Training Points on Weapon Skill, Damage Dice ( emoticon ), Strength, Wounds (and more Wounds lol), and Toughness. Once in a while I would get another attack just to make sure the other Warriors were not becoming more active. emoticon

Last edited by OldWarrior, 25/Nov/2008, 3:13 pm


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