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Lord
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Registered: 09-2013
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Re: Multiple Copies of the Same Magical Treasures


I am trying to see your issue edquest, but to be perfectly honest, I really do not.
The simplest solution from what you have given us here seems to be to have the wizard "bat" clean up every adventure.
I am sorry that I must say if I was a wizard in your group with the restrictions you want to place on a wizard, then I would find another group to play with.
To be totally fair everyone edquest, I certainly hope you are limiting the number of magic items the other characters are using by their rank as well.
If not, you are being incredibly discriminatory against the wizard then.

Now, I am not trying to beat up on you edquest; I am just trying to show how I would feel if you would start to put such limits on my own wizard.

The worst abuser in our group is a Ranger Knight with the Sword of Vengeance treasure card with the Flame of Vengeance, Battle Lord and Shadowfast skills. There was another skill or spell or treasure card involved too that I cannot remember right this second; he has not played with us for over a year due to his new duties at work and a new girlfriend. Before though, he could clean up the room every time until we set the adventures to a higher level.
The same with my wife's wardancer after she got a few skills and was "religious" about going to the Sacred Glades in search of Spings of Ariel to power up her Swords of Orion.
I have to include my Witch Hunter here as well; he has over the years been blessed with a current total of 31 amulets, with as few as three Fury ones right now to seven purity ones with 6,4,5,6 respectively for healing, holy fire, strength and Alcadizzar.
If I am not careful or I hoard too much, I too can clear the objective room myself.
I guess my perspective is that unless you are aware of the possibilities, one can over power any of the characters, especially if they are crafted rather than rolled and even sometimes when they are simply rolled with VERY good luck.

In my very specific opinion edquest, take it or junk it, stop discriminating against your wizard and use her strong points in a way that is best for the group.
I guess the main lesson I would take away from the example you provided is NEVER let her lead the group.
Kindly explain why and expect her not to play for a month or two after while her anger diminishes.
When she comes back, if she does, then always have her as #3 or #4 in the line up.
My wizard would never play with your group with this rank & magic item rule of yours.
I FEEL it is abusive and discriminatory.
Remember, this is just my particular opinion.

Last edited by Warrior Monk, 14/Oct/2013, 10:29 am


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14/Oct/2013, 10:27 am Link to this post Send Email to Warrior Monk   Send PM to Warrior Monk Blog
 
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Re: Multiple Copies of the Same Magical Treasures


Unfortunately, the rules allow the Wizard to cast spells at any time, even before another Warrior's turn. It is a quite common consensus that the Wizard is overpowered and unbalanced compared to the other Warriors (see threads).

Also, for Warrior Monk, why does your Witch Hunter have 31 amulets? From the Rulebook, Training Section it states:

White light blinds the Witch Hunter. and he falls to his knees before the altar When the light dims, there are two amulets on the altar. The original is now charged up to 6 power. Also, he has gained another amulet - generate this as usual.

Do you usually generate 31 amulets? The rules state he generates 1D6. So how can you have more than 6 (one of each)?

From the Basic Rules about generating amulets (which are the same in the Advanced Rules):

Re-roll if you get any duplicate amulets.

It seems pretty obvious that once you get 6 (one of each amulet), you've reached your limit. In addition, each amulet begins with 1D6 charges (Advanced Rules) and can only have a maximum of 6 charges when taken to the Witch Hunter's Guild in the future...

Maybe i'm missing where you're interpreting that you can gain more 1 of each amulet.

I've always felt that the players must regulate themselves with the rules (including this issue of 'multiple items') since there is no GM. Why should someone have more than one of item that has infinite power to pull from it, such as the Chalice of Sorcery? To do so seems abusive.

Last edited by Littlemonk, 14/Oct/2013, 11:36 am


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14/Oct/2013, 11:14 am Link to this post Send Email to Littlemonk   Send PM to Littlemonk
 
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Lord
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Re: Multiple Copies of the Same Magical Treasures


Ah, Little Monk, your prejudice against duplicate treasure items rears it ... head once again.
Ah your Chalice of Sorcery problem, eh?
Never heard of anyone doing the Chalice like you claim people do.
Maybe, YOU need to change who you play with.
Sounds like you have a sneaky git that does not deserve to play the game ever again with decent folks.
Also, in the Warhammer world, sounds like he would be hung, drawn and quartered just outside the Broken Fang in Nuln or would be in incarcerated in the deepest, darkest hole under the Colleges of Magic in Altdorf.
Adventurers and Wizards of the Colleges both dislike wizards that are just too big for not only their britches but their wands!

Moreover Little Monk, since when do the Basic Rules supersede the Advance Rules anywhere in WHQ?

Looks like Little Monk, you need to read the Advanced Rules again.
At the start you get D6 (1-6) amulets just like in the Basic Rules.
In the Advanced Rules, not only can each of your amulets have more than a single charge, there is no limit to the number of amulets.
Shown as so:
Every time you role a D6=6 on the Charging Amulets table, you receive an additional amulet, which its type is generate the same way you did your original D6 amulets - rolling on Amulet Type table.
Very plain and very simple.
In other words, I have rolled an D6=6 here 31, actually 42 times (I have rolled a few D6=1 too), and thereby generating the additional amulets.

Moreover, I have played WHQ with members of the studio and have had both the playing time with greater than six amulets and the Settlement's Witch Hunter's Guild's Charging Amulets D6=6 result twice in one Settlement Phase with greater than six amulets and created the additional amulets in their presence with no flack from them.
That seems to verify that I am understanding the rule of this dice result just fine.
Never thought to ask Andy, Gav or Ian about it, since one of them was there in the game at the time and everyone else playing were GWUK or GWUS staffers and no one had a problem with my Witch Hunter having multiples of each amulet and then generating two more amulets during this particular gaming session.

I take it that you do have a problem with this idea Little Monk.
You would be the first and one & only player I have met since 1995 that does.


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14/Oct/2013, 1:59 pm Link to this post Send Email to Warrior Monk   Send PM to Warrior Monk Blog
 
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God
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Re: Multiple Copies of the Same Magical Treasures


The Chalice of Sorcery wounds the Wizard when he draws from it -- if rolling any results of 1. So, it is a double-edged blade that cuts two ways. emoticon

I think again though that we are running into the issue of different players having different understandings of the rules. Who is right? Let each reader read and re-read the entire rules themselves and make that decision for themselves too! emoticon

I have understood the Amulets the same way as Warrior Monk. However, now that I see such a great difference of interpretation, I will go back and carefully re-read the Witch Hunter's rules just to be sure. That is the type of person I am. I often will check, double-check, and triple-check my own findings.

The Advanced Rules do sometimes change or add to the basic Warrior's rules. I think this might be the case with the Witch Hunter's amulets. I think also though that the basic rule is mostly about the setup process and was not meant to prevent the Witch Hunter from the possibility of gaining duplicate amulets from his visits to the Witch Hunter's Guild. In other words, the basic rule re-roll requirement was meant to ensure that the Witch Hunter would begin the game with a number of distinctly different amulets.

Last edited by OldWarrior, 14/Oct/2013, 5:22 pm


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14/Oct/2013, 5:17 pm Link to this post Send Email to OldWarrior   Send PM to OldWarrior Blog
 
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Lord
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Re: Multiple Copies of the Same Magical Treasures


To be fair to Little Monk, I got caught up with the Witch Hunter and did not address a couple of his issues directly.
I apologize.

Let me address them now.
I, of course, can only do so from my own experience and understanding.
quote:

Littlemonk wrote:
Unfortunately, the rules allow the Wizard to cast spells at any time, even before another Warrior's turn. It is a quite common consensus that the Wizard is overpowered and unbalanced compared to the other Warriors (see threads).


Yes, the Wizard can cast spells at any time.
The Elf's or the Wardancer's glare (my wife's) has shut that down on most of the occasions Wizards starting behaving that way.
If you catch up with any of the GWUS staffers from the mid-'90s that played against my wife in a game, most can tell you about her "paint-burning" glares.
She had definite attitudes about proper gaming etiquette and her glare is a patented Scots-English one.
Some have called it the "Straighten up or die by dissolving into nothing" glare.
One person called it a "School Marm" glare.
Since she is an artist and an educator, she went with the last label.

Any way, only a very few wizards played heavily out of turn in our experience and they did not continue playing with us if they felt that was the way to go.
Helping your team out of turn was considered kosher, but hogging all the glory for yourself and killing any and all monsters out of turn was not.
It was just that simple.

I guess it all comes down to gaming and social etiquette.
A group, crew, club, shoppe, whatever establish their expectations and etiquette fairly swiftly.
What is considered okay in some, may be considered the rudest thing you could do this side of swearing at and brutally killing your mother.
We, the gamers I play with, just have had very, VERY few problems with Wizards trying to take over the adventure.
I think it has to do with the very high standards of behavior we insist on in the gaming groups my wife and I have been involved with.

And as to Wizard being overpowered, every character can be overpowered, if not supervised properly.
Get the wrong item too soon or the wrong set of skills/items/spells or whatever, and a character can become really boring to play along side with in an adventure because they are killing absolutely everything in sight.
That was the consensus I have always experienced with WHQ.
Personally, every time I have ran into that attitude about a Wizard, I could also find a negative attitude about anyone's bad experience with some other character as well.
Again, it is what your gaming experience is.
quote:

Littlemonk wrote:
I've always felt that the players must regulate themselves with the rules (including this issue of 'multiple items') since there is no GM. Why should someone have more than one of item that has infinite power to pull from it, such as the Chalice of Sorcery? To do so seems abusive.


I am very much in favor of the rules.
I am also not in favor of "house rules"; they make it very hard to play with others from elsewhere.
Too often the house rules become the "dearly held" rules.
I have seen way too many players leave a game system because their suggested rules changes to the game company for the newest edition based upon their "dearly held" were "Ignored!"
I just have not found very many occasions that House rules have been a happy item.

I have also experienced reaction to bad gaming sessions by some as "How horrible ¿something? is in the game".
I can sympathize with their experience, but if mine is not similar to theirs on more than just one or two occasions, I just cannot agree to their aggrieved complaint.
It has to be something that is a problem in more than one game with more than one group I play with.

It seems completely obvious that Little Monk's and his friends' experience and the gamers I have played with experiences are very much different.
I guess that is all there is to it.
We are people and that is almost difference enough.

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14/Oct/2013, 6:06 pm Link to this post Send Email to Warrior Monk   Send PM to Warrior Monk Blog
 
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Re: Multiple Copies of the Same Magical Treasures


I heartily agree that Warrior Monk and LittleMonk come from very different gaming experiences.

I think this is not necessarily bad, just different! emoticon

I play Warhammer Quest games with only official rules part of the time and then other games with all my houserules. So, maybe I understand the two different experiences a little. Am I a chameleon? a changeling? emoticon

Last edited by OldWarrior, 15/Oct/2013, 9:40 am


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15/Oct/2013, 9:32 am Link to this post Send Email to OldWarrior   Send PM to OldWarrior Blog
 
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Re: Multiple Copies of the Same Magical Treasures


quote:

OldWarrior wrote:
...

I play Warhammer Quest games with only official rules part of the time and then other games with all my houserules. So, maybe I understand the two difference experiences a little. Am I a chameleon? a changeling? emoticon


Or do you do it just to make sure you have someone to play with each week.
I know gamers who do just that to do just that.

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15/Oct/2013, 9:41 am Link to this post Send Email to Warrior Monk   Send PM to Warrior Monk Blog
 
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Re: Multiple Copies of the Same Magical Treasures


Currently, I only play in a private online gaming community. Sort of like a PBEM type of experience. It is very slow, but I GM a lot of games this way.

Good night, everyone! Sleep tight. Don't let the goblins bite! emoticon

Last edited by OldWarrior, 15/Oct/2013, 9:45 am


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Re: Multiple Copies of the Same Magical Treasures


Greetings one and all (yes it has been a very long time since my last visit here),

As I read this topic I am struck by a consensus of opinion that some sort of restriction is required when it comes to having and using "Multiple Copies of the Same Magical Treasures." Edquest, Littlemonk, and Monk Warrior have each presented the circumstances which led them to such a conclusion. The difference of opinion seems to be centered on the type and extent to which such restrictions should manifest themselves when playing the game. The following summary's may be beneficial in helping this topic along. Mind you, what I am posting here is only my own understanding based on reading what has been posted in this topic.

Position one (Edquest's): The use of multiple copies has led to a virtual loss of the Wizard Character Type due to prejudice among the other players. Prejudice might be too strong a term yet it seems to fit when other characters refuse to sell items of stored power to the character.

Edquest's solution is to implement "House Rules" to bring the Character type into balance with the other characters.

Position two (Littlemonk's): There exists the potential for abuse when multiple copies are allowed (also referring to the Wizard Character class).

Littlemonk's solution is to set the Basic Rules into a kind of "Constitution" status which would hold primacy. The "Advanced Rules" would then be considered as a type of "Universal House Rules." Under this system it would be fairly easy to adjudicate potential abuses by using the "Basic Rules" as the limiting factor.

Position three (Warrior Monk's): While the potential for abuse exists it can be handled by the groups own "gaming and social etiquette" with one player given the task of enforcement on what is and isn't fair for the games enjoyment.

This is not a hard and fast "house rules" or "game rule interpretation" situation as different player groups have different styles of play.

---------------

I hope I have summarized each position fairly. It is the kind of thing I used to do back in my old TSR days in the late 1970's on a fairly regular basis. I'll admit D&D is nothing like WQ but then again, the old Chainmail rules were nothing like what eventually turned into D&D. emoticon



Last edited by Pastor Rick, 15/Oct/2013, 4:18 pm


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Lord
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Re: Multiple Copies of the Same Magical Treasures


I thought I made this clear, apologies if not.

the wizard player was playing fair, but for 3 adventures in a row the other players were the lantern bearer and got choice of items.
decided to treat her as a glorified healer and gave her all the junk items.
sucks.
on the adventure with her as leader she used the items she had manage to accrue and unloaded in every fight killing everything for the entire dungeon.

then she went back to playing as normal and it was all fine, nobody gave her crap items all the time, rules of "gentlemanly behaviour" resumed place at the table.

BUT
I personally dislike playing in a game where one character (and it is always the wizard in WHQ) can be totally overpowering compared to the other warriors.
added to which no other healer is any where near as good as the wizard! I've had a party with no wizard all the way to level 7 and a number of parties up to level 10 with a wizard.
frankly the character gets a bit boring even for the player. it's annoying to be a demigod until level emoticon?) when suddenly every enemy group has a wizard and magic dispel.

check out some of the objective room rolls for level 8-10 with undead especially: multiple enemies who all have magic dispel!
suddenly the wizard can do nothing other than heal and hope one of the many monsters there will fail a dispel roll!

as for the chalice of sorcery wounding you, yes it does, but when you start going "hmm i'll draw 10 extra power from this one, probably take 2d6 damage so 7 wounds. then i'll have 20 wounds left but with that 10 power can level most enemies. then I can use the second one and if i'm still not down i'll use the third one. also I have on the ring of life so if I do go down to zero i'll use that roll of 2+ i'll go back to full health! keep a luck spare for that just in case."
so typically I will play the wizard or another person who can be trusted to play the character in a non-dominating way.

but certainly any character can dominate with the right combination of items. just so happens the wizard walks in already broken with even one or two items (brooch of power, deathstone, wand of diabolum, chalice of sorcery) wand of diabolum makes healing hands a level 1 spell for 1 power!

note though I've not played with these rules yet, it is just my "guesstimate" for what will fix this issue in a straight forward way

---
most of my posts may run into essay length. I find that for a lot of queries/feedback context is important and that is why this happens more often than not.

have a great day :D
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