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posticon Alchemist Hero - Work In Progress (Feedback)


Hi All,

I posted this over on Warseer a couple weeks ago with limited feedback, hoping the dungeon divers here may offer some advice emoticon

I'm returning to a project I left alone for awhile; the Alchemist. I finally had a moment to complete the draft booklet for my variation on this mix master. For those inclined, I would appreciate your feedback on this PDF :

]Alchemist Preview Rules.

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Much like his talent, he is a mix of many parts - some Warrior Priest, a dash of Witch Hunter and a hint of Wizard. He relies on his stored vials, a handful of remembered recipes (Offence, Defence, Special) which I am writing up, and reagents to help boost his success at completing a powerful potion on the fly.

I look forward to your thoughts

This is a WIP miniature I'm working on for him:

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I'll be adding goggles to his head and use greenstuff to rebuild the boots (shifted to suit the pose). Painting the myriad of vials about his person are going to be 'fun'. haha.

Quick parts breakdown because I was asked before:

Lower body of a Bretonnian Archer, which astoundingly has the same padded design as the upper torso from the Empire Militia boxed set. Some careful cutting to trim them to fit neatly is required.

Boots are from on of the Militia legs, arms.. to be honest, I have no idea, I tried so many fits I lost track and then these two worked. Likeliest is Militia boxed set again, possibly Wizards from the Empire Monstrous war wagon kit. The Gloves are from Militia, carefully cut to then have hands added from other parts. The bomb is an utterly random piece floating in my parts tray. The vials are gunpowder pouches from Empire matchlocks and the packs from both Mordheim and SM Scouts. Hoody and head from the Wizard set.

Thanks for your help!
Seb.

Last edited by Nyctophobe, 11/Oct/2013, 9:09 am


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Re: Alchemist Hero - Work In Progress (Feedback)


Hello, Nyctophobe,

I have given your pdf a quick read...

I kind of like this character so far, but I think I need some more information -- which you have indicated will be forthcoming. You asked for advice, and I will give my opinions so far, hoping to be helpful.

I am assuming for the moment that either the beginning section is not yet completed OR that the most recent version has not yet been uploaded. It seems to be missing a little in the method of "making a recipe"/mixing a recipe(?). It says to roll 2D6, and then proceeds to describe what to do if doubles are rolled, but I do not see any clear indication of how this relates to the Power Phase in the first place. Do we roll 2D6 and add the Power Phase dice result in order to meet and/or exceed the particular recipe's mixing/casting cost? This seems to be what is missing I think -- the actual casting/mixing instruction line(s).

I think some of the comparison to the Wizard is unnecessary and possibly confusing when the document says "Unlike the wizard however, the Alchemist can attempt to craft a recipe even if the Power roll is a 1." The implication here being (I am pretty sure anyway) that the Wizard cannot cast a spell whenever the Power Phase dice roll is a 1.

This statement is not true of the Wizard according to the normal rules of the game. The rules state that the Wizard only has 1 Power from the Power Phase whenever a 1 is rolled. This is emphasized for higher-level Wizards since the Wizard usually adds his Battle-Level to the dice roll. When rolling a 1, he only gets 1 even IF he were a level 10 Wizard. None of this means that the Wizard is unable to cast a spell when rolling a 1 in the power Phase. Yes, he might be unable to do so IF he does not know a spell with casting cost low enough to cast with only 1 current power, but he also has his Power Tokens upon which to draw. The Wizard gets another +1D6 Power Tokens (permanent, replenishable personal store of power) every time he gains a new level -- meaning that he will have anywhere from 1 to 60 Power Tokens at the beginning of an Adventure, depending upon his level and how well he rolled the dice for Power Tokens gained. Remember also that there are spells with only 1 casting cast in the Spell Lists.

Crafting a recipe seems also a little strange to me when we think of the time that is taken up by a single turn of gameplay. "Real time" in the dungeon should probably be measured in seconds per turn -- at least during combat, whereas in non-combat turns, time might have slowed down a bit. I am mostly speaking of what I perceive as "real time" in the dungeon, just to help you see why I think it might be good to state this "crafting of a recipe" a little differently. The way it is worded just sounds to me like he is creating the recipe at the moment, while I am pretty sure you mean to say that he is following the recipe in combining and/or activating the ingredients to produce the desired effect.

Suggestion(?): maybe say that the Alchemist combines the necessary pre-mixed ingredient -- like opening two bottles and pouring their contents into a mixing bottle/cup, or whatever. Sorry, but the proper words are not quite coming to me at the moment.

One of the possible effects of "disenchanting" magical treasures seems a little too powerful to me. I quote: "A stable catalyst is found amidst the remains. This magical catalyst will allow one recipe, of any choice to always succeed."

I am thinking that one automatic success, OR at most maybe 1D6 or 1D3+1 auto-successes, or something of the sort would be more balanced. "Always succeed" makes it sound like that particular recipe will never fail again for the rest of the Alchemist's adventuring career. If left as written, I think that the Alchemist might become more proficient with his alchemy than the Wizard is with spells! Several of the Wizard's spells will always have a chance to fail too, since the chance to fail is built into several of the Wizard spell descriptions. emoticon

I look forward to seeing the actual recipes with their casting costs, which you are "working up".

Last edited by OldWarrior, 11/Oct/2013, 1:47 pm


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Re: Alchemist Hero - Work In Progress (Feedback)


Thanks for that thorough feedback Oldwarrior emoticon

I will go through the copy again, I can see now (through your eyes) the merging of draft ideas into the booklet have created carry over issues and/or missing sentences as you say.

How does this read :

"The Alchemist may attempt a single recipe each turn, rolling 2D6 when he does so. If a double is rolled, roll 1D6 again and consult the table below:"

Really appreciate the time you took; I'll review those sections.

As you say, dropping the comparison will tighten his individuality a lot better and create less confusion.

Cheers!

Last edited by Nyctophobe, 11/Oct/2013, 8:35 pm


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Re: Alchemist Hero - Work In Progress (Feedback)


quote:

Nyctophobe wrote:

Thanks for that thorough feedback Oldwarrior emoticon

How does this read :

"The Alchemist may attempt a single recipe each turn, rolling 2D6 when he does so. If a double is rolled, roll 1D6 again and consult the table below:"



You're welcome.

That does seem a better wording to me.

I am still a little in the dark as to how the recipes work I guess, the casting/attempting a recipe...

I think I understand from the whole context that the Mixed Results Table is used for the random and unexpected results when attempting a recipe, but I am still a little unclear on the actual recipe attempting method.

I suspect this is the case: he will the 2D6 be used towards the casting cost of the specific/desired recipe, and you only roll on that table when doubles happen as sort of an unexpected/volatile effect...

Also, when rolling on that table, because of rolling doubles, does the original recipe just totally fail regardless of the results on the 2D6? I think that is what you intend. I might have missed it, but I would wish to see it more clearly stated that the Mixed Results is what happens instead of the original recipe attempt.

Sorry I did not have more time to think this all through, since I am rushed to head to work. I look forward to your further answers and work on this character. emoticon

Last edited by OldWarrior, 12/Oct/2013, 1:06 pm


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Re: Alchemist Hero - Work In Progress (Feedback)


For the Mixed Results: since there are only six results, why even bother rolling another 1D6?

Why not just list it as the double rolled?

11 Curious Drink
22 Potion of Warding
33 Potion of Resistance
44 Volatile Creation
55 Unstable Healing Potion
66 Mix Master

In addition, i think the Short Sword using Strength makes it basically like a Long Sword. Keep it like the 'Halfling Thief' Warrior's short sword, which is +2 regardless of the wielder's strength.

Likewise, with the Leather Armour, it makes sense to do it like the 'Outlaw' Warrior which is +1 T but "at the end of each combat roll 1D6 and on the score of 1, 2 or 3 the armour is destroyed."

His Starting Toughness should read: 2(3)

There are many typos and such.

I think there needs to be something more dramatic in the opening about why such a person (some bookworm and potion concoctor) would risk their life with a bunch of strangers in the most terrifying and dangerous regions of the Old World.

No need to mention "except leather armour" in the Armour restrictions, because that's not "metal" armour anyway.

I don't think that a "disenchanted magical item" should be automatic.

I think the Liquid Fire should only affect one model with no deductions.

I think the Retroactive potion is too powerful.

I think the potions should only last for one turn after their consumed (instead of "once per dungeon"). Also i think that it should read that the any unused potions are discarded at the end of the adventure, perhaps the ingredients dissolve and are useless.

I also think the Alchemist should start with only one Vial (perhaps even a preset one) and the others can be used in the Advanced Game, either at the start or at his Special Location.

Some side missions might be a good addition, if you haven't done something like that yet. Perhaps the main reason for adventuring is the fact that the most precious reagents, solvents, and catalysts are found in the most dangerous areas of the Old World. Perhaps finding such items and donating to the Gold Order would be the ultimate contribution?

Which brings me to a confusing part. At first you say that "For an Alchemist, this constricted fate is likely the greatest motivator for leaving the Order." but then later you mention "That is unless they discover something that will propel them back into the Order, through the very gates once slammed shut behind them."

I just don't now what that means. Perhaps you can clear that up with the aforementioned reasons for becoming an Adventurer.

Some of your pictures are color and others are black & white. I recommend to do one or the other, but not both.

Last edited by Littlemonk, 12/Oct/2013, 3:51 am


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Re: Alchemist Hero - Work In Progress (Feedback)


Hey, I like Littlemonk's suggestion about the use of the actual results of the two dice. There are quite a few other good suggestions there too.

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Re: Alchemist Hero - Work In Progress (Feedback)


Great feedback, thanks guys. It certainly is a draft and getting the wording and types ironed out is going to be a process.

Good suggestions there Littlemonk, I think the 2D6 double usage is a good idea. I'll add that in now.

quote:

Perhaps the main reason for adventuring is the fact that the most precious reagents, solvents, and catalysts are found in the most dangerous areas of the Old World. Perhaps finding such items and donating to the Gold Order would be the ultimate contribution?



That's actually in the intro - he hopes to explore what's out there and test his own theories, and perhaps gain renown enough to be accepted back into the Order.

I'll go through the document again for types etc and find any phrases that dont sit well. It is helpful getting other eyes to read over it - because it is very easy to write with assumptions in mind.

I have actually uploaded an update (0.2), but I'll do a [sign in to see URL] based on Littlemonks feedback.

Cheers lads!

Last edited by Nyctophobe, 12/Oct/2013, 7:18 pm


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Re: Alchemist Hero - Work In Progress (Feedback)


Excuse the double post - just a heads up the PDF has been updated to reflect recent comments.

The Recipe section has been fleshed out more too.

Until I have the basics down, I won't attempt the Advanced Section yet or the Recipes (essentially spell cards).

]Updated Alchemist Rules [sign in to see URL].

Thanks guys.

EDIT : Found an orphaned paragraph in the Recipe section removed it. PLease redownload if you have in the last ten minutes before this "edit time".


Last edited by Nyctophobe, 12/Oct/2013, 7:39 pm


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Re: Alchemist Hero - Work In Progress (Feedback)


Okay, I finally understand the recipe mixing method much better. Thanks for your patience and any editing to help. emoticon

I think I was missing that the two dice rolled was only for the purpose of determining whether an unexpected result happens.

So, basically, the recipes work just like Wizard's spells in relation to the power required to mix them. The unexpected results throws in a good bit of unpredictability to the process, which one might expect from a character who is mixing things up in the midst of the dungeon! emoticon

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Re: Alchemist Hero - Work In Progress (Feedback)


Precisely Watson emoticon

It has been good to run it past you two, really helps tighten the prose and spot the flawed wording.

Look forward to LittleMonk's feedback too.

- N.

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