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God

Registered: 04-2006
Location: USA, Western hemisphere, earth
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Can you Attack Around a Corner?


This question from mearl8252 (quoted from a topic with 3 questions in it).

quote:

mearl8252 wrote:

Can you attack in combat around a corner? I know you can't shoot the guy around the corner. Thinking you can because if not then you would be pinned but can't attack.

...

Thanks for the help.




I cannot remember any specific rule that prohibits attacking around a corner. Therefore, I would refer you to the rules that relate to adjacency and pinning. Still, I think this is a sticky issue, because different minds are going to approach the logic of it from different angles.

quote:

HAND-TO-HAND COMBAT
A Warrior or Monster may fight against any opponent in an adjacent square.
(Rule Book, page 23)



In reference to shooting an enemy that is diagonally adjacent around a corner, this would NOT be allowed, because the Warrior or monster is considered pinned by an adjacent enemy model.

quote:

SHOOTING
Shooting is worked out slightly differently from hand-to-hand combat. A model can only shoot if it is not adjacent to, and therefore not pinned by,ban enemy. If pinned in place, a model must fight hand-to-hand combat, as described above.
(Rule Book, page 24)



Note that NO difference is made in the rules concerning diagonally-adjacent and sharing-a-side-adjacent squares. In fact, for movement, it is specifically mentioned that a model may move to a diagonally-adjacent square even moving between models to do so, but NOT if one of the squares is a corner. No such restriction is made against attacking diagonally at a corner; nor do the rules state that an adjacent model does not pin diagonally if there is a corner next to it.

Unless I am missing something, I think the rules are fairly clear on this matter.

BUT, I won't get mad if anyone disagrees. emoticon


EDIT: I really think this question has been asked often by players of WHQ. I also think it is answered in various ways, because it was not specifically addressed in the rules the way moving around a corner was, which is not allowed.

Last edited by OldWarrior, 7/Feb/2014, 6:43 pm


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Edquest Profile
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Lord

Registered: 09-2011
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Re: Can you Attack Around a Corner?


I believe you can

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most of my posts may run into essay length. I find that for a lot of queries/feedback context is important and that is why this happens more often than not.

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OldWarrior Profile
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God

Registered: 04-2006
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Re: Can you Attack Around a Corner?


quote:

Edquest wrote:

I believe you can



Well, in the original post, the emphasis was something like this: "give me what the rules say with which book and page numbers please". In other words, he did not just want our say so or opinion. Just showing why I seemed to be dancing around the subject with those quotes from the sources. emoticon

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Edquest Profile
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Lord

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Re: Can you Attack Around a Corner?


I read that post too emoticon

I think a more important question might be, in the context of the rules point out where it does not state you can.

this may not work for all elements of the game, but for this one I think it works

---
most of my posts may run into essay length. I find that for a lot of queries/feedback context is important and that is why this happens more often than not.

have a great day :D
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OldWarrior Profile
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God

Registered: 04-2006
Location: USA, Western hemisphere, earth
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Re: Can you Attack Around a Corner?


quote:

Edquest wrote:

I read that post too emoticon

I think a more important question might be, in the context of the rules point out where it does not state you can.

this may not work for all elements of the game, but for this one I think it works



Well, just focusing in this one quote I gave I think would be sufficient to answer the question:

quote:
HAND-TO-HAND COMBAT
A Warrior or Monster may fight against any opponent in an adjacent square.
(Rule Book, page 23)

The square around a corner IS adjacent diagonally. emoticon


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Littlemonk Profile
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Re: Can you Attack Around a Corner?


I have always used the rules of 'Moving' to answer this question.

BLOCKED DIAGONALS
A Warrior may not move diagonally into a square if one of the adjacent squares between him and his destination square is wall. The diagrams below show how this works.


If you can't move into the space, how can you attack through it?

In addition, if you can't see it, how can you attack it? The square around a corner is not within "line of sight" for missile attacks.

So i think both of these things make it highly unlikely that you can attack around a corner in hand-to-hand - and therefore you are also not considered pinned...

Last edited by Littlemonk, 23/Feb/2014, 9:05 am


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OldWarrior Profile
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God

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Re: Can you Attack Around a Corner?


I will now at least partially retract what I said earlier about the rules being clear on this issue. I guess it depends on the angle of reasoning from which we approach the rules.

quote:

Littlemonk wrote:

I have always used the rules of 'Moving' to answer this question.

BLOCKED DIAGONALS
A Warrior may not move diagonally into a square if one of the adjacent squares between him and his destination square is wall. The diagrams below show how this works.


If you can't move into the space, how can you attack through it?




Well, we do not have this difficulty of lack of clarity (lack of clarity in my opinion) with multi-level rooms. I mean, those later rules -- from Lair of the Orc Lord (page 13)-- make it clear that you CAN attack a model in an adjacent square that is one whole level above your Warrior even though your Warrior cannot move from the lower square to the higher in one step -- even though they are adjacent. Of course, in this case, they are NOT considered to pin each other either, AND there is a penalty for attacking from lower to higher (-1 to hit I think) in melee.


quote:

In addition, if you can't see it, how can you attack it? The square around a corner is not within "line of sight" for missile attacks.




In this case, I am pretty sure that the Rule Book does NOT state that you cannot see through squares which diagonally cross a corner. In fact, the games I have seen which use this same type of straight line from center of square to center of square allow line of sight diagonally like this. This is I believe another situation where there is lack of clarity in the rules.

Notice that the diagram shown to prove line of sight or the lack thereof does NOT show the case that we are addressing. It shows models that are clearly beyond a diagonal straight line one way or the other (I mean diagonal in relation to crossing squares at a corner). In one case the line is clearly blocked by a wall and NOT crossing by a corner while in the other it is clearly not blocked by a wall.

quote:

To determine whether a model can see a target or not, draw an imaginary line from the centre of the firer's square to the centre of the intended target's square. If this line passes through a wall, the 'line of sight' is blocked and the target may not be fired at.



Image


If the Orc were just one square to the right, then we could say this proves a corner blocks line of sight, but they failed to show that. Also, if the Elf were just one square to the right, then we could say that this proves corners do not block line of sight. emoticon EDIT: I added modified image to illustrate what I said above.


Modified image:
Image

I think this leaves room for us as players and GMs to judge whether the straight line passes through the wall or not, when it goes through squares that are diagonally adjacent across the edge of a corner. I think maybe we each have to decide for ourselves whether it is to be considered adjacent or not for the purpose of melee combat.

I wish they would have addressed the corner issue specifically in reference to line of sight AND melee attacks as well.

If I am wrong and they have clearly addressed it somewhere, I would be glad to see it so that I can share it with my gaming group, where it has mostly been allowed across the years -- both the line of sight and the melee attacks diagonally across a corner.

Last edited by OldWarrior, 23/Feb/2014, 6:19 pm


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Littlemonk Profile
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Re: Can you Attack Around a Corner?


I misunderstood the 'around the corner' aspect for adjacent squares as well as the positioning for 'line of sight'. I took them both for granted as being the same angle.

It looks like you're exactly right about. I was mistaken!

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OldWarrior Profile
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God

Registered: 04-2006
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Re: Can you Attack Around a Corner?


quote:

Littlemonk wrote:

I misunderstood the 'around the corner' aspect for adjacent squares as well as the positioning for 'line of sight'. I took them both for granted as being the same angle.



I had wondered about your use of the words If you can't move into the space, how can you attack through it?. However, I thought it might just be that you were not being very precise at the moment.

Anyway, I still think if someone wishes to say, "Hey, you cannot move into that space and therefore you cannot attack an enemy in it either, because that corner of the wall is getting in the way." then, it does not necessarily break the rules per se. I just doubt the designers intended to prohibit it.

Last edited by OldWarrior, 24/Feb/2014, 8:12 am


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Warrior Monk Profile
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Lord

Registered: 09-2013
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Re: Can you Attack Around a Corner?


We here and at the games that were played at GWUS back in the day, it was understood that the fighting and shooting rules to be exactly like the movement rules and so we went with if you cannot move into the square you, cannot fight anything in that square.
In other words, "If it is good for the goose, it is good for the gander."
Certainly makes for some shucky-darn situations though.

Granted the differing level problem is different, but what is the problem with that?
Going with the official rules for differing levels, either direction, seem to work.
What's the hang up?

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