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Lord
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Re: Dwarf Slayer


New problem.

We had new player just start.
One of the other members of the party was running a slayer whose rune axe had four runes of strength.
The same player's slayer also had the Boots of Battle.
The kick connected and the player said the strength of his blow was '9'.
The new guy objected, but the other three players told him he was wrong.
He was upset enough that he protested once more, was shut down by his fellow players and then brought it up very energetically with me during the AAR.

The question here is simply this:
If a slayer is actively using a rune axe that has runes of strength upon it, do the runes still jack his strength up when using another weapon during the same warrior phase, such as the Boots of Battle, Bladed Boots and so forth?

Yes, this is an extremely "No Duh!" question, but this player needs to hear the same answer from other folks beyond just me.
Thank you for y'all's help.

---
In service of Deity, the Latter-day Prophet, the de la Valette and mankind.
13/Feb/2015, 4:55 pm Link to this post Send Email to Warrior Monk   Send PM to Warrior Monk Blog
 
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Re: Dwarf Slayer


I have generally understood that a weapon's Strength modifier only applies to the damage that weapon does to the target in combat, whatever the reason for that weapon's Strength modifier.

So, an Attack that is made with another weapon ONLY adds its own Strength modifier if any and NOT a modifier from another weapon.

Now, if a Warrior had something that increased his/her Strength characteristic, then that modifier would apply no matter what weapon they are using. Say a Warrior has a ring that adds +1 Strength (at all times), then he/she would get to add this to the Boots of Battle damage, or a Rune Axe damage, or whatever, in addition to that weapon's own Strength modifier (if any).

Similarly, a weapon's own Strength modifier should never be used for a Warrior's Strength tests (non-combat), but something like that ring WOULD affect all Strength tests.

_ _ _ _

By the way, FOUR runes of Strength on his Rune Axe sounds rather lucky OR this Troll Slayer is probably at a high level. The reason I mention this is that IF he gained those runes because of rolling on the Trollslayer Shrine table, then he could only get a maximum of two in one visit (a fairly rare occasion I might add*) AND each one is good for only ONE Adventure unless the Trollslayer rolls a 6 when he received it. Quotes below:

quote:

A Rune of Strength. This adds +1 to the Strength of the Trollslayer for the next adventure, after which the rune fades.
...
As soon as you have rolled to see what rune you have gained, roll another dice. If you score a 6, then the rune is permanent, and does not fade at the end of the next adventure.



*I say rare occasion to get two Strength runes in one visit, because getting two runes of the same type during one visit to the Trollslayer Shrine requires firstly only one visit to the Trollslayer Shrine per settlement (rule for Special Locations), and he would have to roll a 5 or 6 on the table, then roll 3-6 twice, and for the next two dice rolls he would need to roll 1-2.

Last edited by OldWarrior, 13/Feb/2015, 7:07 pm


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13/Feb/2015, 6:50 pm Link to this post Send Email to OldWarrior   Send PM to OldWarrior Blog
 
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Re: Dwarf Slayer


1) Level 7 Slayer

2) From the Slayer booklet:
quote:

Rune of Strength. This adds + 1 to the Strength of the Trollslaver for the next adventure, ... .


You are saying that this has to do just and only with the weapon and not the Dwarf?
The Rune text does not mention the weapon at all.
Might you change your opinion based upon that quote?

3) Two runes in one visit?
What?
And then:
quote:

Make two dice rolls on the Inner Chamber Table, to see what happens to him there.


Twenty years and I have never evidently read the last sentence of that paragraph or at least it never got through my thick stone skull.
Evidently, none of the three persons, who have Slayers, that I have played with over the years, have either.
Time after time of going to the Shrine, rolling up the necessary rolls to get to the Runesmith, losing at least a third, if not sixty percent, of the runes so generated because they faded away, and it never sank in that you could have had two runes acquired in one visit.

Well, I know my two Slayers will be making two rolls from now on after a D6=5/6!

While we are here, I just thought of an associated question.
Can a Slayer have more than one "Killer blow!" (D6=3-6--D6=6) potential attacks?
It does not say yes, but it does not indicated only one.

---
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13/Feb/2015, 8:23 pm Link to this post Send Email to Warrior Monk   Send PM to Warrior Monk Blog
 
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Re: Dwarf Slayer


A level 7 Trollslayer. Indeed, he would have had many opportunities to gain runes at the Trollslayer Shrine. emoticon

My answer to the quote about the Rune of Strength is that they worded perhaps a little too loosely, BUT, I have always understood that if you are not wielding the weapon for that attack then the rune cannot be used to benefit that attack. Therefore, the Strength benefit could not benefit anything else either.

The instructions for runes on any Dwarf axes all seem to take for granted -- and sometimes state or imply -- that the Dwarf is using the axe with the rune on it in order to get the rune's effect. And yet, there is that Rune of Restoration that works to heal the wielder (though it must be equipped and not in his backpack! emoticon ). In that case, the rune does not have an offensive/Attack-related effect.

quote:

Warrior Monk wrote:

Can a Slayer have more than one "Killer blow!" (D6=3-6--D6=6) potential attacks?
It does not say yes, but it does not indicated only one.



I have often wondered about this. I have always treated it as a skill, like a skill that a Warrior gets when leveling up. IF the skill does not say that he can get the skill a second time (or beyond), then we reroll until the Warrior gets a different skill. So, this being a specific skill, that to me seems so similar to one of those skills, I reroll on the Trollslayer Shrine Inner Chamber Table if my Trollslayer already has the Killer Blow skill.

Last edited by OldWarrior, 14/Feb/2015, 11:38 am


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Champion
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Re: Dwarf Slayer


As far I understand, with the exception of the Wizard's staff (which only works for the power roll and not the +1 Toughness), you cannot gain the benefit of the weapon in question unless you are actively using it.

As there is a specific distinction on weapons that can be 'dual-wielded' (i.e. darting blades, wardancer's special weapons) I would simply state what weapon you are using before attacking, which should clear any confusion.

Generally before attacking to save time/confusion later on you can just push forward the card of the weapon you're going to use before rolling to attack during your specific warrior's phase.
15/Feb/2015, 11:44 am Link to this post Send Email to Ehstevey   Send PM to Ehstevey Blog
 
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Re: Dwarf Slayer


We play that wielding the weapon confers the rune bonus, unless otherwise specified.

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15/Feb/2015, 12:34 pm Link to this post Send Email to Littlemonk   Send PM to Littlemonk
 
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Lord
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Re: Dwarf Slayer


Little Monk, I know this may sound very stupid, but what exactly do you mean by "wielding"?
Do not worry, I have been asked this very question, but was surprised by the ire raised by my answer which is based on real world experience mostly and then fiction, both written and film.
My answer is "wield" is what is in your hands being used since it affects everything else you do.
I know a little about your background in the arts of martial endeavor so I do not think I will be shocked by your answer.

Old Warrior, these runes (Strength & Toughness) were among the last written by Andy & the WHQ Crew so I must conclude that they were intended to be different in their qualities than the others because they were worded differently than almost all of the others.
Based on how the Runes of Strength & Toughness are written, and how this writing is different than nearly every other rune in how they are described, I am going to go with my ruling here in the West.

Since the Slayer just used his rune axe in his normal attacks, the Boots of Battle and the like in their following attack get the Strength bonus.
It is just what makes sense with everything within and connected to the matter considered.
Now I just have to work out the Strength situation with the Gauntlets of Soul Rending and the like. emoticon

I agree about Killer Blow!
I always felt it more like a skill rather than a specialized extra attack.
The guy here that has two Killer Blow! will be re-rolling the prior result and get a new situation.

Really?!? emoticon
Is that old saw still coming up - the Wizard's Staff. emoticon emoticon emoticon

Wish the Studio's answer for it had come up in the WHQ Q&A in WD198; it might have shut down the controversy completely.
Then again, it took how long and how many answers in WD for the Assassin and the Vortex Grenade in 40K to get taken care of?
Any way, it was settled in their first electronic Q&A, but folks still harp on about it.

The ruling said, that as long as the wizard is just using a singe-handed weapon, such as a standard-sized sword, the wizard could use the staff in his off hand.
There were some people apparently who were confused still by this ruling.
My understanding about these people was that they kept thinking the wizard's staff had to be used like a full quarterstaff, which is not the case.

What was really nice is that the proper use of the wizard's staff in combat was very visually explained in the motion picture "the Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King".
Gandalf the White, while leading the defense of Minas Tirith's walls, showed the correct use of staff and sword in close combat.
Unfortunately, this matter still rears its very battered head from time to time.
I have no idea why.

Actually, just thinking about it, you would think that GW's position on the matter would be readily apparent by their wizard toy soldiers.
I have never seen any of them use their wizard staves as a quarterstaff; walking staff-yes, but not a quarterstaff.
Moreover, how many are wielding both a sword and staff at the same time without any sort of dual-wielding skill being required.

Ehstevey, your attacking order does not gell for me.
Every Slayer I know (East Coast, Mid-West and the Rockies) uses their rune axe and then their boots every turn (and that is if they do not have the Gauntelets of Soul Rending, which must be used before any other weapons are.).
Any way, probably the -1 to-hit on the boots makes "the axe, then the boots" the logical progression.
Moreover, I have never heard anyone use the term "dual-wielding" when it came to weapons used by different sorts of limbs.
Boy, that would really screw up the Chaos Warrior with how much he uses his mouth along with whatever sort of hand weapon he presently has in his hands!

Ehstevey, you have never had a Slayer character, have you?
I say this with confidence due to your last paragraph.
The rune axe's card rapidly becomes completely useless as the Slayer works with the runesmiths from the Guildmasters and the Slayer Shrine (and this mess does not even "pour" runic treasures into the mix).
All of the modifications the rune axe undergoes (nine different runes if you only count the runes from those two sources which all but one can be had in meaningful multiples) has to be kept track of in the Notes area of the Adventure Sheet.
You could make up your own card, but the rune axe could change by as many as three runes every time between adventures; that sounds like a lot of extra mindless meaningless work; especially so since some of the runes are permanent while others are only good for a single adventure.

Boy, did I loft that pigeon high and with a lot of deflection asking this particular question.
Sorry folks.

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15/Feb/2015, 2:35 pm Link to this post Send Email to Warrior Monk   Send PM to Warrior Monk Blog
 
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Re: Dwarf Slayer


"Wielding" to us means that the weapon is being held and used in combat.

Agreed that a staff can be "carried" and used as a magic item in one hand while the Wizard carries and fights with a weapon in the other (although GW said he doesn't need to be holding it in his hand to use the power).

However, as GW said in their FAQ, the Wizard's Staff must be used as a weapon in order to confer the Toughness bonus. So he does not get the bonus by just carrying the staff in his off hand while he's using a sword in the other. (Realistically, a staff isn't used like that anyway. It's a two-handed weapon.) Maybe i'm confused, because it sounds like you think GW said the opposite? But the FAQ i'm looking at says that it must be used as a weapon to get the bonus?

Q: Does the Wizard have to be using his staff as a weapon to gain the +1 Toughness benefit?
A: Yes, he must be using it as a weapon to gain the Toughness benefit. (GWUK)


If the Wizard's Staff wasn't to be used a weapon, like a Quarterstaff, why does it cause (1D6+Wizard's Strength) Damage? To me, that's the definitive reasoning.

I see the GW figures with sword and staff as simply iconic symbols that the wizard is a fighter, a spell caster, and and magic user. Perhaps he's switching weapons? Perhaps it's inferring that he can use either? Perhaps he's using the power of his staff and fighting at the same time? But i don't think the mini design is saying he's using a sword to fight and a staff to defend himself at the same time.

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Re: Dwarf Slayer


Well, I agree to disagree agreeably about the Rune of Strength's wording and how it should be interpreted in reference to the weapon upon which it is inscribed and the Trollslayer's Strength characterisitc. emoticon

Just going by the letter, the actual text used in the rune's description, IS a strong case for your position, Warrior Monk.

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15/Feb/2015, 3:23 pm Link to this post Send Email to OldWarrior   Send PM to OldWarrior Blog
 
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Lord
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Re: Dwarf Slayer


Interesting, interesting.
I have contradictory FAQs.

The two WEB ones, the 2.1 & 3.0 versions, that we speak of in another thread here, both say that one must use the staff as a weapon to receive a defensive bonus (+1T).
On the other hand, the notes that I took down in 1997 when Andy & Ian came to GW-US and met with staff and then the Outriders with some staff present, about WHQ, both say the opposite.
Interesting, interesting.

Does anyone have any source material concerning the on-line FAQs beyond an alleged ruling by "someone" at GW-UK?
This has gotten me rather curious especially since back in '97, Ian Pickstock got rather heated about the question and complained about it being asked where ever they went and how illogical it was to require the sword to be sheathed/dropped and the staff being used in isolation to get the +1T.

Interesting.
My stoniness earlier stems from his reaction, and Andy Jones not disagreeing with him.

Just like a monk's bo, a quarterstaff can cause damage.
That would be why it has a damage value.

Having just re-read the paragraph in the RolePlay book, I see the confusion that might be had by someone who has no knowledge of non-firearms or their use.
Ian, who along with the Perrys, participated in pre-modern reenactments, would understand how a staff could used purely defensively while wielding a sword/hammer/flail/etc in the hand.

I am really wondering how that particular from the WEB Q&As came out.
"GWUK" is allegedly a response that was a letter received from someone at GW-UK on the question.
Is it a matter of concern that a name & date were not provided by Mr. "Michaul Anderson" in the [sign in to see URL] and still is not provided in the [sign in to see URL]?
And then does anyone here actually personally know the person(s) behind the Library of Muggee where the [sign in to see URL] is currently being held?

Maybe I am a bit jaded by the work I did for years dealing with people whose integrity was always questioned, but I was trained at university to always look for the accuracy in peoples' statements; look for the primary sources.
These FAQs are perfect examples of sources which are secondary at best, tertiary more likely or probably worse.
They do not provide any source material that one can corroborate what they declare to be "Gospel Truth".
Unfortunately, "GWUK" could be, at an honest worse, just a ruling by some staffer, who really has no idea what WHQ was all about, in a UK GW retail store to meet the criteria of a "GWUK" ruling.
At very worse, granted, based on the persons I had to deal with for years, these FAQs, beyond what was published in WD198, could be complete fabrications.
But, again, that could just be my jaded view.

There have been contradictory rulings about GW games before, Blood Bowl's being the most famous.
Recordings on the WEB of Jervis Johnson saying one thing about something at one venue and then contradicting himself at a later event.

I am acknowledging that the on-line FAQ says "staff only" for +1T.
I am also saying that the text in the RolePlay book does not fully support that contention as written, especially since it separates offensive and defensive use into separate declarative statements.
The Treasure card simply repeats the two separate sentences that the RolePlay book has.

I can see the way that some can make this opinion to fit this nameless ruling.
Based on real life experience, my own and the written annals of warriors and soldiers, I cannot comprehend why someone would want to believe in that fashion when actual recorded use says otherwise.

Unfortunately, all we have is an FAQ on the WEB that says one thing that we cannot corroborate.
But it stands as what allegedly GW-UK said was the rule, so such is, it is.

Why is it there are always errors, if the posting is longer than 50 words, that you never see until after you have posted?

Last edited by Warrior Monk, 15/Feb/2015, 5:41 pm


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