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Lord
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surviving the first dungeon


my experience with WHQ has always been that surviving the first dungeon is a nightmare.

so often if that first one can be survived the party can continue onwards to a bright future of at least 1-3 dungeons.

in an effort to enable a party to do this I have tried many things over the years but recently (by which I mean in the last 13 months) I have tried a new method which works great.

I start the warriors all at level 2 but with no additional equipment, they do a level 1 dungeon first time round, the second one they do a level 2 dungeon as per usual then crack on.
I do not start with a level 2 dungeon due to all the daemons and their auras giving all warriors -1 to hit unless a magic weapon is used.

this seems to help survival and also seems to avoid the bulletproof dwarf situation as characters still want to level up.

just to add we still lost 50% of groups in their first adventure due to bad luck of monster gatherings. especially the 9 minotaur objective room in one particular dungeon!

---
most of my posts may run into essay length. I find that for a lot of queries/feedback context is important and that is why this happens more often than not.

have a great day :D
21/Dec/2014, 10:24 pm Link to this post Send Email to Edquest   Send PM to Edquest Blog
 
OldWarrior Profile
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God
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Re: surviving the first dungeon


NINE Minotaurs in one Objective Room! Wow! How did you get that many? By my calculations, you would only get at most seven Minotaurs while using the Dungeon Event cards and the Objective Room Monster table in the Adventure Book. So, this makes me think you might be rolling on the Monster Tables in the RolePlay Book for the first Adventure. I used to kill off very many Warrior parties by doing the same thing. emoticon

This was never intended by the creators of the game. They intended that a first-Adventure party use only the basic game's method of generating monsters for that first Adventure (cards only), and then perhaps move on to the tables -- and full advanced rules -- after that first Adventure. How do I know? Because of how they gave advice on adding new, custom monster cards to the Dungeon Event deck. They took Dark Elves (and/or Dark Elf Naggaroth Black Guards) and suggested something like 1D3 (or was it 1D3+1) for the quantity, while the Monster Table for Dungeon Level 1 shows a quantity of 1D6+3 for Dark Elves and 1D6+2 for Black Guards.

Also, please note that Minotaurs on the Monster cards do NOT have the Fear special rule, because that is NOT officially introduced into the game until the Warriors are ready to use the advanced rules (after the first Adventure).

Even IF I am right about the way they intended for players to NOT encounter the RolePlay Book monster tables until AFTER the first Adventure, people will still find that the Warrior parties will often die during the first Adventure, but, it is more survivable. emoticon

Edquest, your method of letting the Warriors start out at Battle-Level 2 is another way to more or less level the playing field, because facing the level 1 Monster Tables with level 2 Warriors and no treasure would be similar to facing the same tables with some treasure and equipment gained in a previous Adventure and maybe one or two of the Warriors having graduated to level 2 in the process.

I created my own custom Monster Table for First Adventure Warriors only (find it ]here -- it is my original custom monster table but revised in December 2010, using a D66 for both the Monster Events Table and for the Objective Room Monster Table.). Check it out. I think that it is well-balanced for brand new Warriors. The reason I made this table was so that I could introduce the full variety of monsters found in the RolePlay Book without creating cards for all of them.

I still use cards to generate whether the event is monsters or non-monster events and to keep the ratio between events and monsters equal to the original Dungeon Deck's ratio.

Last edited by OldWarrior, 22/Dec/2014, 3:04 am


---
Old Warrior

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God bless you, everyone!
22/Dec/2014, 3:03 am Link to this post Send Email to OldWarrior   Send PM to OldWarrior Blog
 
Edquest Profile
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Lord
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Re: surviving the first dungeon


I use the advanced rules for fear etc. from the start.
the level one monster table has fear noted in the special rules section.

otherwise level 1 warriors are not scared of minotaurs and then at level 2 they suddenly are?!

it was unlucky rolls, but could have actually been worse.
roll on Objective room advanced table was 4-5 3 rolls on warriors own level table.
1st roll D3 minotaurs = 3
2nd roll same again, but different actual number
3rd roll was 11/66 so a roll on level 2 monster table and came up with 3 minotaurs!

but some of the things on the level 2 table are actually worse than this.
not that it helped the warriors, this fight actually lasted quite a while as the healer of the party avoided pinning and fled to the far end of the room and the remaining 3 warriors pinned all the monsters for many turns before the dreaded Power roll came up a 2 and prevented healing!

swap 3 minotaurs for maximum number of whatever daemons could happen (plaguebearers, bloodletters or horrors) and this would have ended much quicker!!

---
most of my posts may run into essay length. I find that for a lot of queries/feedback context is important and that is why this happens more often than not.

have a great day :D
22/Dec/2014, 8:14 am Link to this post Send Email to Edquest   Send PM to Edquest Blog
 
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Re: surviving the first dungeon


Well, I certainly agree that it would seem strange that higher level Warriors suddenly become afraid of monsters that they fought previously without fear. The normal rules do not always make sense when compared to real life.

I like to let there be a little customization of Warriors at the beginning of their career when deciding to play more hard core -- like when using the full RPG rules immediately. For instance, letting players exchange one skill/spell for another skill/spell that they then choose (instead of rolling randomly) and letting them having a little gold to buy some extra equipment -- nothing more than 200 to 300 gold though.

I have found that the customization in skill and/or spell worked really well for an all elf party for whom I have been the GM for a while now. The Elf Ranger Mage got Light Power, and the Elf (one of the original four Warriors) got Herblore.

All in all, I actually like how deadly WHQ can be in that very first Adventure. It makes surviving seem that much more of an accomplishment. emoticon

---
Old Warrior

Check out Bible Notes
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God bless you, everyone!
22/Dec/2014, 10:40 am Link to this post Send Email to OldWarrior   Send PM to OldWarrior Blog
 
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Lord
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Re: surviving the first dungeon


Never had a first time party or character cop it like you describe.

Then again, we never had the Event deck dump nine minotaurs on a group in a single go either.
Like I said elsewhere, I keep the new characters on the Event deck until they reach level 2.

Even after that, since I do not like randomness for random's sake, I always use a customized table of my own device with a customized Event deck, never just those tables from the RolePlay Book.
Maybe that is why after all these years, I have only lost one character on my watch.

And the fact that I very much believe in the "Fighting Withdrawal" rather than just giving up and/or using the Escape table.
If the situation looks like you are about to be overwhelmed by what you bit off, then spit it out and back up and then move in a retrograde fashion out of the facility.

In my opinion, in WHQ, if you believe that you are about to buy the farm, you are right four out of five times so do something positive about it!

---
In service of Deity, the Latter-day Prophet, the de la Valette and mankind.
22/Dec/2014, 12:14 pm Link to this post Send Email to Warrior Monk   Send PM to Warrior Monk Blog
 
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Lord
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Re: surviving the first dungeon


Forgot the Fear factor issue:

I guess I never saw the disconnect between the Event deck and the book because I always saw the process that was intended in the game by Andy et al.
I also never pointed out to anyone that all of a sudden you now have a chance of fearing a minotaur.

The one time I had it pointed out to me by a player, I just informed them that we had not been using the Psychology rules in the introductory adventures while they were learning the basic rules.

Seemed to be enough of an explanation to the gamers I was working with; all of us were used to the idea of learning basic rules and then adding in advanced rules as you learn.

Just me I guess, yes?

Last edited by Warrior Monk, 22/Dec/2014, 12:24 pm


---
In service of Deity, the Latter-day Prophet, the de la Valette and mankind.
22/Dec/2014, 12:22 pm Link to this post Send Email to Warrior Monk   Send PM to Warrior Monk Blog
 
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Lord
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Re: surviving the first dungeon


maybe my table is just a victim of poor probability studies.

I've had an adventure before where in the first 3 corridors (straight corridors) we ran the event deck out entirely due to the sheer number of 1's rolled in the Power Phase!
(my event deck includes all the basic event cards, extras from White Dwarf and the orc war lord expansion set)

I use the tables in the book exactly as they are for monsters, writing tables for specific quest dungeons sounds like fun, but takes time I would rather be playing with.

oddly I still think after around level 5 the game is too easy to survive and as far as the bad luck situations do occur warriors can often survive due to the accumulation of stuff over time (by stuff I mean healing stuff mainly, but other things are helpful too)

I don't think my parties have ever been in a position where they were in deep trouble and a retreat could actually work.

but I have been in positions where the roll on the Objective Room monster table has come up a 1 (one roll 2 levels high, 1 roll 1 level higher and one roll of equal level to the players) and the roll for level +2 monster has been 11, 66, 11 so a level 3 party fought a level 8 enemy...
dragons are on that table and no level 3 party in the world would win that fight.

they got off lucky, cannot remember what showed up, but it was the weakest thing on that level table and not a spell caster.

---
most of my posts may run into essay length. I find that for a lot of queries/feedback context is important and that is why this happens more often than not.

have a great day :D
22/Dec/2014, 11:04 pm Link to this post Send Email to Edquest   Send PM to Edquest Blog
 
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Lord
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Re: surviving the first dungeon


"Different strokes for different folks." I guess.

After Level 5, custom tables are almost always required to keep it challenging.

You do not wait for "deep trouble" to withdraw; serious trouble is usually enough to sense that the "hammer" is going to fall soon.
Maybe it is because of military training, but I can tell when it is going to "hit the fan".
At least most of the time - lost that one Chaos Warrior when it was obvious that the drek had gotten too deep and holding the line by a single character was going to be the only way the other three could escape.
He stayed with a Glowstone and allowed the others the head start they needed to escape.
<<A moment of silence with a bowed head for the honoured dead.>>
I work very hard so as to never lose another adventurer.

That mixed bag of monsters is exactly the problem with the random for randomness tables for combat.
Skaven Plague Monks, Assassins and a Plague Priest with a couple Warlock Champions that just arrived through a crevice in the room's wall would be more inclined to take on the Chaos Dwarf menagerie they discovered in the Objective Room, which in turn would also like to kill off that party of Black Orc Champions led by a Big Boss of the same ilk that just crashed through the doorway than deal with the two humans, the dwarf and the elf that just snuck into the room.
Animosity between natural monster enemies is almost the only rule that I feel Andy did not include that he should of - at least some of the time. emoticon

But, as I said at the start, "Different strokes for different folks.", right?

---
In service of Deity, the Latter-day Prophet, the de la Valette and mankind.
23/Dec/2014, 7:21 am Link to this post Send Email to Warrior Monk   Send PM to Warrior Monk Blog
 
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Re: surviving the first dungeon


quote:

Warrior Monk wrote:

Forgot the Fear factor issue:

I guess I never saw the disconnect between the Event deck and the book because I always saw the process that was intended in the game by Andy et al.
I also never pointed out to anyone that all of a sudden you now have a chance of fearing a minotaur.

The one time I had it pointed out to me by a player, I just informed them that we had not been using the Psychology rules in the introductory adventures while they were learning the basic rules.

Seemed to be enough of an explanation to the gamers I was working with; all of us were used to the idea of learning basic rules and then adding in advanced rules as you learn.

Just me I guess, yes?



White Dwarf Issue #193 (page 20) by Gav Thorpe, under the Rat Ogre title heading:

...since Battle-level 1 Warriors are so full of fiery youthfulness, they aren't scared of anything (it's only as you gain experience that you truly learn what terror is!).


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OldWarrior Profile
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God
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Re: surviving the first dungeon


Nice comment there! I had not thought of the fact that sometimes people have no fear of things for which they SHOULD have fear!

---
Old Warrior

Check out Bible Notes
It is one of my favorite places on the Internet.
God bless you, everyone!
5/Jan/2015, 11:20 am Link to this post Send Email to OldWarrior   Send PM to OldWarrior Blog
 


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