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Ehstevey Profile
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Reroll a reroll


This has probably been brought up before, but for the life of me I can't find a thread or anything to confirm this in the FAQ or rulebooks:

Can you reroll a reroll with luck or other abilities?

Some examples might be having a luck characteristic of more than 1 and forcing a reroll of your to hit to be rolled again due to another failure.

Also how is this affected by things which state that you must accept the second result even if it is worse (I seem to recall there is an item allowing you to reroll the power result in one of the expansion decks with that caveat)?

Furthermore, does the order in which you apply abilities and luck really matter?
4/Feb/2015, 10:34 am Link to this post Send Email to Ehstevey   Send PM to Ehstevey Blog
 
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Re: Reroll a reroll


I think this is an excellent question.

I have a few points, but I also find no clear statement that prohibits or sanctions the use of Luck to reroll a reroll. My points lean towards allowing it -- at least by my way of reasoning.

Here are the points for consideration:

1. The fact that the Luck section in the RolePlay Book does NOT specifically prohibit this and that it states Luck can be used "to re-roll any dice roll that fails." It seems that a reroll that then fails would qualify for the use of another Luck to reroll again.

2. Rerolling is no guarantee that the reroll will be a success, or a more desirable result. So, having to spend 2 or 3 Luck points to get a better result seems awfully unlucky to me. Why not allow it then?

3. Luck is a rather rare commodity in the overall scheme of things when we consider the sheer number of dice rolls that are made throughout every aspect of this game. So, yet again, it seems like a waste to use it on rerolling a reroll, unless it is a very important something -- like avoiding death in a Duel!

4. Anything more specific, like the example given (It is the Chalice of Fate), which puts further limitations upon a reroll would fine tune/overrule the more general Luck rule, but only in the case in question -- like in this case when the Chalice of Fate is used to reroll the power die. Often a specific item or ability will have some limiting effect upon it that helps to balance out its beneficial effect. So, it seems in the case of the example, the reroll of the Power die with that item will prevent any further rerolls with the use of Luck or anything else (like Wizard's Staff), since "you must accept the second result" is stipulated.

Concerning the other question, "does the order in which you apply abilities and luck really matter? " I do not necessarily think so. I think the way the rules read that the last result of the rerolling process is the one that the player should accept -- I see this as at least implied in the Luck section. So, ultimately, I think the player will probably save Luck as a last resort IF other abilities and effects of magic (and etc.) fail to gain the desired result for the particular dice roll in question.

In the case of using the Chalice of Fate to reroll the Power Phase, it seems not to take into account other rerolls beforehand -- as in totally ignoring, or overlooking the possibility, but then it prevents the use of anything else to reroll the result that the Chalice of Fate causes by its reroll. However, since it actually states that you must accept the "second result", I would rule (as GM) that it cannot be used with any other reroll. So, using a Wizard's Staff or Luck, for example, to reroll the Power die first would in my estimation prevent the player from being able to use the Chalice of Fate on the same Power roll.

Last edited by OldWarrior, 4/Feb/2015, 2:04 pm


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Re: Reroll a reroll


Sometimes Old Warrior, you just roll out an explanation and it just beautiful in form.
Keep doing the great job!

BTW, in no game out there is there a rule that actually allows a re-roll of a re-roll.
It just is not done.

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Re: Reroll a reroll


quote:

Warrior Monk wrote:

Sometimes Old Warrior, you just roll out an explanation and it just beautiful in form.
Keep doing the great job!

BTW, in no game out there is there a rule that actually allows a re-roll of a re-roll.
It just is not done.



Perhaps the developers of games just assume that it is universal practice NOT to reroll a reroll. I wonder...

Now, for a comparison.

I have Talisman 4th ed. (revised) on my mobile device (iPad). I noticed that when spending a Fate (like Luck in WHQ) it allows the reroll of a single die only, even when TWO or more 1D6s are rolled for something. Then, the player must accept the reroll even if it is worse. There is no opportunity to reroll a reroll in that game.

So, I looked up the mobile version's rules at the official site. I quote two short paragraphs below.

quote:

If a player pays a fate token to reroll a die, he must accept the new result; he may not pay another fate token to reroll the same die again.

 If a player rolls multiple dice (for example the Death space in the Inner Region), he may only pay one fate to reroll one of them.



In this quote I see they actually state very clearly that a reroll cannot be rerolled.

By the way, the Talisman game also states that a player cannot reroll an enemy's dice roll, whereas WHQ says that Luck CAN be used to reroll a monster's dice roll or even that of another Warrior.

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5/Feb/2015, 1:32 am Link to this post Send Email to OldWarrior   Send PM to OldWarrior Blog
 
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Re: Reroll a reroll


quote:

OldWarrior wrote:
... , whereas WHQ says that Luck CAN be used to reroll a monster's dice roll or even that of another Warrior.


One of the reasons to just love WHQ the more.


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Re: Reroll a reroll


Given the scarcity of Luck, I'd personally think of it more as: given the number of failures, you'd have the be REALLY lucky to get out of this, hence expending multiple Luck in order to make sure something does/doesn't happen.

Also it states that you can reroll any dice roll made by another player, not warrior, so by extension any dice not rolled by some sort [sign in to see URL] can't really think of something not rolled by a player (unless you have a dedicated GM) could be argued that they could be rerolled by luck (the exception being skills and training as per the FAQ).

You'd want to save your Luck anyway for settlement events like rolling up a duel and then a 1, so I can't think of many things that would warrant several rerolls unless it is absolutely critical.

It would be interesting to treat Luck like a party pool thing where people can potentially 'bid' for luck or just assign when appropriate (stuff like instant death or other critical moments) given its relative ambiguity (you can reroll other player's dice, not just your own). Essentially more like a divine intervention (you could well justify it as any of those in warhammer's pantheon). Kind of a meta-concept, but interesting and potentially good as a story-telling device.
5/Feb/2015, 8:49 am Link to this post Send Email to Ehstevey   Send PM to Ehstevey Blog
 
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Re: Reroll a reroll


Old Warrior, do you have the same opinion he has in the prevalence of failure in your games as shown by this quote?
quote:

Ehstevey wrote:

Given the scarcity of Luck, I'd personally think of it more as: given the number of failures, you'd have the be REALLY lucky to get out of this, hence expending multiple Luck in order to make sure something does/doesn't happen.


Does failure really enter that much into y'all's games?
We feel good planning can ameliorate a fair amount of failure and avoid at least some of the Fog of War.

Given who I have said plays here, maybe the pre-game we go through will make sense.
We play with the maxim that the failure to plan is planning to fail in our minds and hearts.
Maybe we play too much like it is our lives on the line like it is/was in our real lives.

Pre-game:
1) COMPOSITION
Decide whose characters are going to be in the next adventuring party.
Personally, I have:
Barbarian, 2 Dwarf Warriors, Wizard, Witch Hunter, Warrior Priest, Imperial Noble, Bretonnian Knight, Ex-Blood Bowl Player, Pit Fighter, 2 Chaos Warriors, 2 Slayers, Ranger Mage, Ranger Knight.
And I am NOT the person with the most characters; there are at least two others that have every GW and Black Library character.
2) COORDINATION
a) Decide on who is leading the party and where everyone else falls in the party.
Most times we follow the Initiative rule, but for the sake of story, we do mix it up at times.
b) part of this decision also takes into account who has what abilities, skills, items, magic items and so forth. (e.g. if someone has an alternate light source {e.g. Eyes of Fire} and there is a chance of the Flames of Khazla corner being present - that character will be in the fourth position so as to leave no one in the dark.
3) OPERATION PROJECTION
We set down how we think we can accomplish what the adventure's objectives are.
Resources are carefully examined here.
Minus magic, how many wounds we can suffer is calculated.
Ammunition-dependent weapons and their depletion are also seriously considered here.
Etc.

For those who understand, we simply go through the entire OP-ORD process.

Game:
Everything we did in pre-game is kept in mind through the adventure and we keep pretty close to the OP-ORD.

Post-game:
We basically go through the AAR (After Action Report) process most of us go/went though in life.
Written reports make it possible to review what has gone on before and to be able to go through adventures you were not able to be present for.

If we are going to expend our limited time to play this game, we try to make that time be quality time through careful and effective planning.
Yes, we might be strange, but we have a great deal of fun any way.

Last edited by Warrior Monk, 5/Feb/2015, 11:06 am


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Re: Reroll a reroll


quote:

Warrior Monk wrote:

Old Warrior, do you have the same opinion he has in the prevalence of failure in your games as shown by this quote?
quote:

Ehstevey wrote:

Given the scarcity of Luck, I'd personally think of it more as: given the number of failures, you'd have the be REALLY lucky to get out of this, hence expending multiple Luck in order to make sure something does/doesn't happen.




Warrior Monk, I think the quote is in reference to the fact that many dice rolls fail. How could they not do so when you have a 17% chance to roll a 1 on every 1D6 roll? emoticon In other words, I think you might be taking Ehsteve's use of the word failure a little too seriously or too catastrophically.

Failure is something Edison did 999 times when trying to make the light bulb work. He succeeded on the 1000th attempt! (that's the story anyway) So, each one of those little failures was not a huge thing in the overall sceme of things. IF Edison had thought of himself as a failure, when he had failed that 999th time, then he might have failed indeed to get the light bulb working, but he tried once more, 'rerolling' as it were his experiment once more! emoticon Although, I am sure he learned from his 'failures'.

I think Ehstevey is speaking in reference to the whole range of possible failures that Warriors can have in the game. I mean a level-one Elf missing with his bow is a failure, but it was 50% likely to happen. So is the chance of the Elf succeeding with the next bowshot he makes (since he needs 4+ to hit at Battle-Level 1).

The issue of planning ahead...

It sounds like you guys take your gaming very seriously. This is not a criticism, just an observation.

I game with a lot of randomness in the preparation process. My 'group' does not meet locally and regularly. My solo games are another story, but I really don't plan ahead the same way as you describe.

Those I game with, game in a sort of PBEM environment, on a private site. Often a GM will create a game with no idea who will be the players. He can restrict which type of Warriors can join, but even then we often have to remind people to make sure a healer takes one of the open slots. Of course, with a GM, they can do all sorts of things to help the Warriors out IF they so desire -- like making random treasures more likely to produce healing items than in an average game, or making it less likely the Warriors will face the worst monsters or at least lessen the number of them. This is all assuming that the GM uses random methods and it is not a prewritten Adventure (like Death Below Karak Azgal).

So, yes there can be quite a lack of preparedness. I actually like to see how the different combinations of Warriors plays out. Obviously, some work together much better than others.

Also, I have found that part of the fun of Warhammer Quest is the frequency of Warriors dying, or at least of their failing to complete a quest because they had to run for their lives.

Then again, and back to the idea of 'failing' on dice rolls (at least), it seems to me that the experiencing of many failures often leads to a greater feeling of awe, jubilation, victory, success, or whatever you want to call it, when a Warrior, or the Warriors finally succeed at something in which they had previously failed or were on the edge of failing.

But, again, I am not criticizing Warrior Monk and his group. I think what he describes is an excellent way to play. In fact we do a little of that in the community I mentioned above. In fact, the very first game I GMed there, I recruited four players and their characters in the main chat of the site. Once we had the 'verbal' agreement beforehand of who all was playing and what characters, then I created the game and used an 'invite' option for them to join. It was four male players who joined with four female characters: Barbarian, Elf, Wizard, and a Priestess of Shallya (custom Warrior by The Custodian).

That game, The War to End All Orcs, a story-driven campaign, is still going, though rather slowly, to this day. They are only at Battle-Level 3 in several years. That might show you how slow this way of playing is. It is often at a snail's pace -- no exaggeration here!

Last edited by OldWarrior, 6/Feb/2015, 3:09 pm


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Re: Reroll a reroll


I think Ehstevey is receiving too much blanket criticism and he is getting misinterpreted. Making a mountain out of a molehill, so to speak.

We don't "plan" for the next adventure because the next adventure is rolled at the beginning of the adventure - after all the time in the Settlement has been been completed.

We play that the party composition is already determined before rolling up a new adventure. But i could see someone rolling up an adventure and then deciding who is best fit (and best equipped) to take on the assignment.

We also play the exact same way as Ehstevey describes with the 'Luck Pool', that we reroll other Players' rolls with Luck Points. The first person to say they are rerolling gets the honour of doing so. We never allow a reroll of another player's roll, however, unless they agree. But that's just good sportmanship and not necessarily an absolute. Technically anyone can reroll anyone's dice, even if it was a detriment to the group.

RPB Page 43:
At any time you like during the game, you may discard one of your Warrior's Luck tokens and re-roll any one dice roll that has just been made, whichever player made it.

I'll admit that we have fudged the dice in the past, when we've gotten in too deep over our heads. We have actually decided at times to go back a couple of dice rolls and reroll the original dice (such as when you roll a 66 on the Monster Table, then rolling another 66, and then rolling ANOTHER 66! We have opted to reroll the ORIGINAL roll of 66 instead from the original level.)

Yes, i agree that there is catastrophe at so many points in Warhammer Quest and so many chances to fail, that Luck is best saved for Settlement Events, Escaping the Dungeon, and Power Phase rolls of '1' that spell certain doom for the Warriors.

Last edited by Littlemonk, 7/Feb/2015, 9:50 am


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Re: Reroll a reroll


LIttle Monk, I am sorry that you think I am "criticizing" Ehstevey here.
I just believed what I took as an overly dour point of view of failure in WHQ and tried to explain how one does not need to have such.

Our attitude here is failure is either the exception to the happening or that we are not preparing adequately.
Yes, we here have experienced the Fog of War in real life, but we do not dwell on that with WHQ.
One keeps one mind and spirit positive; we feel that is "rewarded" in such circumstances because it is in real life if you have done everything else one can.

We do not do the Luck pool.
We just apply the points each of us have earned where we individually feel the need.
I do not think I even been in a group where anyone has asked for someone else's Luck since at least 1996.

I failed to tell y'all when the mission/adventure gets selected in what I typed earlier.
It is at the beginning of OPERATION PROJECTION after COMPOSITION & COORDINATION are finished.
I apologize.
For us the mission/adventure starts when leaving the settlement.

We must be rather calvinistic in our dice rolling.
What has happened has happened, and now must be endured.
We do not do any fudging in other words.
Luck is used here very sparingly, if it is remembered at all.
Almost always there is at least one adventurer that will have at least one Luck point left by time we get done with everything - many times more.
In point of fact, I know one player here who always thinks there is going to be something more important to use his Luck on later so there are many games he has not used a single point of Luck at all.

Again, I am sorry that any one thought I was being critical of ehstevey.
I simply commenting on the one statement and how we here deal with the factor he was talking of.
I apologize for any offense taken.

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