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Lord

Registered: 09-2013
Location: Northern Rockies
Posts: 281
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Re: How do you Generate Monsters?


I will go forward in this in the nature that Old Warrior and LittleMonk insist was meant.
quote:

Edquest wrote:
I don't use the cards ever.
I use them to see E or M in the corner to denote if it is monsters (roll on table) or event (roll on table).


Two responses here:
*Seems almost like you are out to kill characters rather than develop them.
*The cards were what made Warhammer Quest, Warhammer Quest, at least to me; any game can have charts.
quote:

Edquest wrote:I was under the impression when you roll monsters with magical items all monsters of the same group (single monster roll) have the same items?

so if I roll necromancer, wight lord and some skeletons the necromancer and wight lord will have the same magic weapon.
this becomes important at higher levels, as you rightly point out.

although it does mean a harsh combo is very harsh indeed, but there you go.


Never once have I thought this and I wonder where you got this thought Edquest.
Every monster character is supposed to be as different as every heroic character.
I roll up each and every monster character's magic implements separately.
That was what I was talking about being challenging in my prior posting.
quote:

Edquest wrote:I pretty much play every dungeon as a randomly generated one from scratch, I don't play pre-gen dungeons as we play the advanced but non-roleplay game


Randomness for the sake of randomization seems pointless to me.

My adventures are either keyed to a theme or to a physical piece of terrain.
I have adopted many of the suggestions concerning the adventure locales from the WHQ articles in WD.

For example, I have a lot of Ed Bournelle's Skeleton Key Games' (SKG) eAdventure, Cartophile & Ptolus along with other series 2D terrain.
I have mounted a fair amount on 3/16 mat board.
For my current solo adventure I am using some of the map pieces to reproduce the adventure map presented in SKG's Cave Details map pack.
Yes, I know where the objective room is, but it is at the natural end of the cavern on the map so I do not have any trouble making my way through all of the cave.

When the leader gets to the edge of a board piece, then the next map piece is shown.
Since there is considerable space on each of the 6 x 6 map pieces, an Event card is pulled any time a new map piece is revealed.
Makes for quite the fight especially when you get the leader to hit a corner that generates three map pieces at once.
"Room" after "room" of quality fighting!

And it is Heinrich Kemmler's lair on top of all this!
Him and Krell in the Objective Room.
I bet that leaves some of you with nightmares even without being in that fight with that duo!
I am looking forward to it.
With the Slayer in the party, it will be "Do or Die"!

None of my games are RPG-like and i personally do not do RPGs.
The randomness provided by the cards and the dice is sufficient for me.
Some of the group games I play have refs, but that is at others' insistence.
When a ref usually knows less about WHQ than I do, that gets really annoying.
Advanced Rules is the only way for me.

Last edited by Warrior Monk, 21/Mar/2015, 5:17 pm


---
In service of Deity, the Latter-day Prophet, the de la Valette and mankind.
21/Mar/2015, 5:10 pm Link to this post Send Email to Warrior Monk   Send PM to Warrior Monk Blog
 
Edquest Profile
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Lord

Registered: 09-2011
Posts: 269
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Re: How do you Generate Monsters?


the only part of my post that was not aimed at the original question was the part on magic items/weapons/armour

sorry for any confusion

"Never once have I thought this and I wonder where you got this thought Edquest. "

under magic armour, magic item and magic weapons the final line before the 1D6 table states
"a group of the same type of monsters have the same magic weapons, so you should roll for the group as a whole"
(weapon/armour/item delete as appropriate)

this is where I got it from p83-p84 of the roleplay book.

as the sticky at the top states: if you play differently that is fine, there are no WHQ police coming round emoticon



---
most of my posts may run into essay length. I find that for a lot of queries/feedback context is important and that is why this happens more often than not.

have a great day :D
21/Mar/2015, 6:05 pm Link to this post Send Email to Edquest   Send PM to Edquest Blog
 
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Lord

Registered: 09-2011
Posts: 269
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Re: How do you Generate Monsters?


same type, thinking about it, is ambiguous.

I *think* they mean all monsters created by the roll of one encounter

so chaos lord, chaos hero, D3 chaos champions and a chaos sorcerer. if they all had magic weapons they would all have the same, if some have armour it would all be the same.
any with 1 magic item would all have the same, if the hero has 2 and the lord has 3 they would both have the same 1st and 2nd item and the lord would have a 3rd random item.

they could mean "type" meaning the champions all have a magic weapon and armour, the hero has different weapon and armour and the lord again ahs different weapon and armour.

---
most of my posts may run into essay length. I find that for a lot of queries/feedback context is important and that is why this happens more often than not.

have a great day :D
21/Mar/2015, 6:49 pm Link to this post Send Email to Edquest   Send PM to Edquest Blog
 
OldWarrior Profile
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God

Registered: 04-2006
Location: USA, Western hemisphere, earth
Posts: 1267
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Re: How do you Generate Monsters?


My understanding of the "all of the same type" has been that all Chaos Champions would get the same Magic things, all Savage Orc Shamans (in the case of having two in the same group), and etc...

So, if a monster of an exact type gets Armour of Carnage, then all of them get it. Whereas their leader, who will likely be of the same race, will have a separate roll on the Magic Armour table, though it could end up being Armour of Carnage (by sheer randomness).

I quote from just the Magic Armour section of the Monster Special Rules:

quote:

If the Monster's entry indicates that it has magic armour roll 1D6 on the following table to determine what it is. A group of the same type of Monsters has the same magic armour, so you should roll for the group as a whole.



So, it seems to me there is some room for interpretation as to the word type, but I think of this as more specific than the word race which they did not use.

I do, however, like the idea that the monsters could have even more variety of magical stuff they are carrying. I just don't think the rules say they are supposed to.

---
Old Warrior

Check out Bible Notes
It is one of my favorite places on the Internet.
God bless you, everyone!
22/Mar/2015, 12:24 am Link to this post Send Email to OldWarrior   Send PM to OldWarrior Blog
 
Warrior Monk Profile
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Lord

Registered: 09-2013
Location: Northern Rockies
Posts: 281
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Re: How do you Generate Monsters?


quote:

Edquest wrote:
... .
under magic armour, magic item and magic weapons the final line before the 1D6 table states
"a group of the same type of monsters have the same magic weapons, so you should roll for the group as a whole"
(weapon/armour/item delete as appropriate)

this is where I got it from p83-p84 of the roleplay book.


Ah, randomness for randomization's sake!!

I never use the monster tables in RolePlay book other than as:
^To set a Bane Sword's prime target;
^To source out what should be fair in customizing monster's cards for a type of adventure.
There might have been a third reason I have used them, but I cannot remember if that is simply to be courteous or if I really have.

Any how, that means no one roll generates, in my experience, more than one monster character in a single card/roll thereby never needing to give a group of monsters the same Magic Anything.
Therefore, those lines in each were something I read two decades ago and never had to remember.
Maybe one of my future Event cards will have to take that into account now.

One real solution found!!
Yay!!
quote:

Edquest wrote:
... .

so chaos lord, chaos hero, D3 chaos champions and a chaos sorcerer. ... .


In my view that is four types.

If the stat line and/or special rules are different, it is a different type.
quote:

Edquest wrote:
as the sticky at the top states: if you play differently that is fine, there are no WHQ police coming round emoticon


Ah, you lucky jesters.
Maybe you were never outspoken enough to get on their radar.
I cannot say the same.

Last edited by Warrior Monk, 22/Mar/2015, 4:14 am


---
In service of Deity, the Latter-day Prophet, the de la Valette and mankind.
22/Mar/2015, 3:48 am Link to this post Send Email to Warrior Monk   Send PM to Warrior Monk Blog
 
QuestingKnight Profile
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Lord

Registered: 06-2009
Posts: 79
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Re: How do you Generate Monsters?


The next time my group and I play, I'm tempted to float this idea:
I seem to remember the ratio of Event to Monster cards being about 1:2 in the original game. I would use about six tokens, with the appropriate proportion of Event Tokens to Monster Tokens. Simply draw a token and roll on the appropriate type of table.
This has a side-effect of allowing Adventure descriptions and GMs to tamper with the ratio to suit the flavour of the dungeon.

Hopefully fast and simple to use!

As always, discussion is good and keeps this game alive; keep it professional and have fun!

QK

---
Questing Knight

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22/Mar/2015, 9:04 am Link to this post Send Email to QuestingKnight   Send PM to QuestingKnight
 
OldWarrior Profile
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God

Registered: 04-2006
Location: USA, Western hemisphere, earth
Posts: 1267
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Re: How do you Generate Monsters?


Hello, QuestingKnight, welcome back again. emoticon

In the Event Deck Simulator that I use, the default is 37% Events and 63% Monsters.

However, when using an actual deck, every time a card is drawn that ratio changes based upon which cards are left. So, your idea for using the tokens is close, but probably would provide a more consistent chance of one or the other. I am assuming you would throw the token back into the bowl each time.

I remember when I did use the physical cards, that I would sort of keep track in my head, something like the following: "Hmmm... we have had about 10 monster events so far and only 2 actual events. So, the chance that the next room will generate monsters is much lower than when we started this Adventure." emoticon

Last edited by OldWarrior, 23/Mar/2015, 3:55 am


---
Old Warrior

Check out Bible Notes
It is one of my favorite places on the Internet.
God bless you, everyone!
23/Mar/2015, 3:55 am Link to this post Send Email to OldWarrior   Send PM to OldWarrior Blog
 
Edquest Profile
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Lord

Registered: 09-2011
Posts: 269
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Re: How do you Generate Monsters?


it's not randomness for the sake of randomness to play the game with the exact tables that the game comes with...

or is it?

I'm not sure I follow the logic.

back to the original post, your first post:

"Now with all of my personal adventurers being at Lvl7, none of the monsters are worth less than 450g.
I do try to limit the monsters chosen in the number of monster Magic Armour/Items/Weapons they have.
D6=6 Monsters with three each means you are managing 18 magical things at once and that is if none of the other monsters pulled up have any themselves."
this means the threat level of the dungeon is significantly lower.
once characters are removed with magical items it becomes considerably easier

"Once an Objective Room (I almost always use the Dread King's Throne Room for the zoo) had monsters with 94 magical things for me to manage and play against at once because I went for challenging monsters and did not pay attention to how many magical toys they had.
That was not so much fun so I have managed the possible monsters much more carefully since while still trying to keep it challenging.
Said intelligent "animal" though always gets their full amount of magical toys. "

again the higher levels are supposed to be hard, this is making them easier.

combining this with a single firestorm spell, or 6 firebombs (a cost of 600 gold) almost always killing a dragon in one single turn...

in another thread discussing lethality you said nobody has died in your games, parties fall back and retreat through the dungeon and use tactics and stuff like that.

I think the game being significantly easier due to your use of modifying the game really.

on the side issue of event : monster ratio, I do find events when fights are already in place are really hit and miss.
and hilarious.
I especially love when, midway through a fight for their lives, a random warrior finds a treasure chest/secret door/person chained to the wall!

---
most of my posts may run into essay length. I find that for a lot of queries/feedback context is important and that is why this happens more often than not.

have a great day :D
23/Mar/2015, 4:29 am Link to this post Send Email to Edquest   Send PM to Edquest Blog
 
OldWarrior Profile
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God

Registered: 04-2006
Location: USA, Western hemisphere, earth
Posts: 1267
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Re: How do you Generate Monsters?


Now, Edquest is obviously addressing Warrior Monk's post -- just to be clear. emoticon

I would like to interject here that though I DO use the Monster Tables provided by the RolePlay Book usually from the second Adventure in any Warrior's career and onwards, I have other ways in which I have made the game more survivable for the Warriors.

Hence, this is why I sometimes run a new game -- usually a campaign/career long game -- that is strictly "Hardcore WHQ", meaning that I take away all (or most of ) my house rules and play strictly "by the book" as I understand the original rules. I find that such "Hardcore" games are much more likely to end with one or more Warriors dying.

I also run some games in which I use custom tables created by others and/or by myself. I like having one or more Adventures based upon a theme (usually race), like the official expansions did. I will likely be using some of Littlemonk's custom race-based tables in the near future.

By the way, I can see the appeal of using cards instead of tables for those who play like Warrior Monk does -- without a GM. I think the makers of the game encouraged both ways of playing, by using the cards and by using the tables, since they provided the blank cards so that we could easily add new monster cards to the deck.

I wonder whether anyone actually has a complete collection of custom Dungeon Deck cards in which they represent each Dungeon Level of the Monster Tables. I think that would be a superb collection! emoticon This way, if they wanted to play with random monster groups (like the tables provide), but without rolling on the tables, then they could just pick up the deck of the appropriate difficulty level (per the RolePlay Book instructions: use the Battle-Level of the party to determine the Dungeon Level of the Adventure), shuffle, and play.

---
Old Warrior

Check out Bible Notes
It is one of my favorite places on the Internet.
God bless you, everyone!
23/Mar/2015, 6:16 am Link to this post Send Email to OldWarrior   Send PM to OldWarrior Blog
 
Warrior Monk Profile
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Lord

Registered: 09-2013
Location: Northern Rockies
Posts: 281
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Re: How do you Generate Monsters?


I have to be honest here.
I have never been called a lying cheat so smoothly.
Over on that Frothers web page they would have just said so.
The degree it was taken to here is rather amazing to me and a bit saddening, but I guess it must simply be addressed.

The Wizard Zoo adventure has no creature worth less than 440g.
The 450 afore was a mistype.
That means the enemy's basic foot troops are not 20g goblins, 40g clanrats, 55g orcs, 80g skeltons, 100g beastmen or dark elves, 120g chaos dwarves, 140g witch elves, 240g chaos warriors, 410g bull centaurs and so forth.
That is 440g minotaurs with 450g giant scorpions and gigantic spiders as basic enemy grunts.
Then you add Dragon Ogres, Hippogriffs, Griffons, Trolls, Stone Trolls and Rat Ogres.
Then mix in Savage Orc Shaman, Skaven Warlocks and Beastmen Shaman.
And then add more heavy hitter types like Beastman Heroes, Dragon Ogre Champions Minotaur Heroes and Black Orc Big Bosses along with Orc Shaman Champions & Skaven Warlock Champions types to shake things up.
And MORE!!
Monsters ranging from 440g to 2400g.
And those are easy monsters?
All who have magic selections aiding in their attacks have their full complement and are using them upon the characters.
I do not see where I removed monster characters with magical armour/weapons/items from my enemies list.
The Wizard Zoo gets to be the most random adventure I do, but it is all themed to a wizard that had a huge amount of hubris, falling down dead due to his "Collection" of interesting animals and an adventuring party had been hired to "Clean up" the mess.

Furthermore, you must recognize the actual rarity of any area effect weapons and how little they factor-in in a thorough adventure.
If for an entire dungeon filled with heavy hitting bad guys, you have one firestorm icon, six firebombs and maybe a wizard with the firestorm spell, how soon are you going to have nothing to fight these monsters with?
Rapidly!
There is no way that you can fight an adventure they way he is claiming I am.
Even to withdraw, would require many more pieces of area-effect weaponry to do it solely.
It has never happened.

Randomness simply for the sake of randomization is a comment upon laziness.
The creators, several times in White Dwarf magazine, strongly encourage people to come up with their own adventures and not rely upon their charts.
If you do not bother to theme up what your are doing in the game, it certainly appears like laziness to me and so randomness for the sake of randomization is bad in my book because it requires no effort or creativity.

Do all of you have the WHQ WD articles.
They were filled with wonderful ideas of how to set up, play and how to follow a themed adventure all from the beginning through the end instead of blindly following those general randomized monster charts.
They helped put "Quest" into "Warhammer Quest".

I still do not see how I am making these games easier for only level 7 characters by just not letting the number monster magical items on the board in any single fight hopefully not surmount the triple digits quantity.
If I preserve the lethality and the quantity of the monsters as they were designed, how am I fundamentally changing the game simply because the adventure was themed with monsters from a random chart into a group of monster cards that make the adventure less random and more unified in race or theme.

Really folks, is the game called "Warhammer Manage Your Magic Whirligigs and Then All of the Monster Magic Thingamabobs" game?
It is Warhammer Quest and quests have a purpose, a unifying focus.

Simply, if the reason I am not losing players has little-to-nothing to do with an alleged powering down of the adventure and a whole lot more to do with actual threat assessment and following though with an actual plan, what is the guy's problem?
Jealousy?
Envy?
What?
Why am I being attacked and being slandered for being successful at what we ARE supposed to be doing?

I have quite a number of adventures that the company has managed to either withdraw or carry through with less than ten wounds left on every one and not a single consumable left.
But the only way they did that was that I powered down the game by modifying it of course and not being able to manage my party well.
No sir.

Why am I being targeted here?
Simply because I do not play or think the way he does?
What a shame.

---
In service of Deity, the Latter-day Prophet, the de la Valette and mankind.
23/Mar/2015, 12:14 pm Link to this post Send Email to Warrior Monk   Send PM to Warrior Monk Blog
 


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