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Warrior Monk Profile
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Lord

Registered: 09-2013
Location: Northern Rockies
Posts: 281
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World view


quote:

... .
 Then again, in the grim darkness of Warhammer Quest, 'there are no winners; just survivors'.
... .


A poster recently posted this on this WHQ discussion site.
Is this really how all of you see the Warhammer World?
Is this really y'all's Weltanschauung as it would have been said in the Empire?

Maybe I am a hopeless Celto-American, but I just cannot look at the Warhammer World or our own in that fashion.
I am a "Go down fighting or on to Victory" sort of person.
That no matter how dark it is getting, if you fight on long enough, especially smart enough, in the end, not necessarily at a temporary/wished end, but at the real end, victory can actually be achieved.
Chaos cannot and will not be allowed to win.

Speaking of this attitude - its greatest prophet always comes to mind - John Blanche.
Having met John during the run up to Games Day '97 and spent a bit of time later too, I just do not accept the attitude he proselytizes of "eat, drink and be merry because tomorrow if we do not die, we will be eating s*^# any way and probably die soon no matter what."
He has made a pretty penny off of that attitude for close to 30 years though GW, but has also ruined his health with it too.
I do not see any truth in the Dark Gothic he passionately preaches; there is only self deception and a why care/try whine.

Yes, the Warhammer World and our world has great evil, greater apathy and sad villains in them, but there is fabulous beauty, mighty causes and great selfless persons as well in what I believe to be in larger portions.
These worlds and others should be celebrated for their positives and not just be ways to express despondency, negativity and self deception.

<<Stepping down off the box.>>

---
In service of Deity, the Latter-day Prophet, the de la Valette and mankind.
4/Feb/2015, 1:04 am Link to this post Send Email to Warrior Monk   Send PM to Warrior Monk Blog
 
OldWarrior Profile
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God

Registered: 04-2006
Location: USA, Western hemisphere, earth
Posts: 1283
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Re: World view


Hey, I get up on my soap box once in while too.

My comments here are somewhat in response to Warrior Monk's post, but I sort of wonder off a little.

I heartily agree with having a positive outlook even in Warhammer Quest and other similar types of gaming.

Of course, fantasy gaming, especially any roleplaying aspects, is often about doing and being what we might not actually be doing or being in real life. I do find personally though that it is much easier to act in accordance with my own reality and beliefs than it is to roleplay characters that are totally different than I.

In reference to the Warhammer World being gloom and doom and dark and depressed and etc... I think some of the official materials actually state such in reference to the Warhammer Fantasy RolePlaying Game (at least 2nd edition, of which I have many of the official books). I personally would much rather play Warhammer Quest than to enter wholeheartedly into such a dark world as is depicted in WFRP, BUT, I still see WFRP as only a game and would hope that players would find a much less bleak outlook in real life. emoticon

Then again, no matter how dark the fantasy world be painted, the players and/or GM can certainly choose to have their characters rise above the darkness, to transcend the average Joe, and to strive to be true heroes.

If I were to play WFRP, I would want to play with people who generally have a more positive outlook than the average. Otherwise, I think I would find the game to be a bit too depressing.

So it seems I have wondered off slightly, by focusing more on the WFRP game than the world view idea that Warrior Monk discusses, but it is certainly related. I guess I mostly agree with Warrior Monk's expressed attitude of having a winning spirit and celebrating the positive, emoticon but I also wish to point out that some of the characters being played might see matters differently. emoticon

---
Old Warrior

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4/Feb/2015, 8:36 am Link to this post Send Email to OldWarrior   Send PM to OldWarrior Blog
 
Ehstevey Profile
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Champion

Registered: 12-2014
Posts: 22
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Re: World view


To qualify the statement (the quote from myself), it seems like you're taking it as a negative outlook on the game itself (or life in general) when it's anything but. Might be a cultural thing (it's actually a quote from the Blood Bowl PC game which seemed particularly fitting, so we used that).

The gothic Blanchian world of Warhammer as it was envisaged, with bright colours, otherwordly characters and twisted figures that lurk in the shadows presents a different kind of experience. The nihilistic Warhammer we see nowdays lacks the kind of brightness and tongue-in-cheek humour which made Warhammer fairly unique in its extremes (in a twisted catacomb full of chaos beasts one minute, then the next in an alehouse brawl or getting hit by a runaway cart as you try to push an old lady out of the way). So in the end, it tickles both ends of the spectrum and without both to balance it out, you end up with basically a lopsided experience which doesn't really feel like Warhammer, it just becomes another generic game featuring dungeons (and perhaps dragons).

At times it can become rather startling in realism (just dying to a lucky sword thrust from a duelist, warriors settling down or getting killed in a raid), but that's what to us makes the game what it is: the driving force that makes it worth playing because when you remove those limitations suddenly there's nothing at stake. Though it's always good to keep a resurrection spell handy just in case :P
4/Feb/2015, 10:52 am Link to this post Send Email to Ehstevey   Send PM to Ehstevey Blog
 
Warrior Monk Profile
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Lord

Registered: 09-2013
Location: Northern Rockies
Posts: 281
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Re: World view


It is the Blachian idea that good will never win in the end is what I totally reject.

The Blanchian ideal is that no matter how men strive, chaos will win in the end any way.
Also, the connected principle that men are good only for what it gets them and not because man can actually be good is at issue.

That worldview is revolting and an anathema to my worldview.
I have always had a problem with that facet of the Warhammer universe and the sometime stumping of it by John and his "acolytes".

And Old Warrior, John stumped it far beyond just his influence in the early days of WFRPG.
Just get him a little "buzzed" and in the '90s, you could hear him go for hours, even after the "Haircut".

---
In service of Deity, the Latter-day Prophet, the de la Valette and mankind.
4/Feb/2015, 2:07 pm Link to this post Send Email to Warrior Monk   Send PM to Warrior Monk Blog
 
Ehstevey Profile
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Champion

Registered: 12-2014
Posts: 22
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Re: World view


I think of it more of a Macbeth-like "tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow". Like most stories of the time (what we would call 'classic fantasy'), fantasy wasn't entirely focused on the massive meta-narratives that plague todays 'franchises', instead it was a focus on the individual within the world and bascially a series of events which occured and were resolved in single stories. They might continue (The Adventures of XYZ) but each was self-contained and non-reliant on any further reading (Fighting Fantasy has to be probably the purest example of this concept).

Personally I see the struggle itself shows a kind of strength and resolution. It's story behind the veil of gloom which distracts and entertains from the minutes to midnight are ticking down (*shudder* End Times...let's forget about those for a moment).

Now regardless of the futility of the actions of the characters (if you accept it as such), it does not mean that they nor their actions are not awesome. So I would say: the fact that the character has survived to adventure in the first place (within the Warhammer setting) is a miracle, everything after that is gravy (and usually hilarious).

In a tag-on note, I don't think that the Blanchian idea was so simplistic, rather that evil would always simply exist, taking many forms (including the amorphous ruinous powers) both seductive and horrifying in an exaggerated and twisted depiction of human nature (as the ruinous powers have always been: through fear, anger, greed and deceit).
4/Feb/2015, 3:08 pm Link to this post Send Email to Ehstevey   Send PM to Ehstevey Blog
 
Warrior Monk Profile
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Lord

Registered: 09-2013
Location: Northern Rockies
Posts: 281
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Re: World view


quote:

Ehstevey wrote:
...

Now regardless of the futility of the actions of the characters (if you accept it as such), it does not mean that they nor their actions are not awesome. So I would say: the fact that the character has survived to adventure in the first place (within the Warhammer setting) is a miracle, everything after that is gravy (and usually hilarious).


This is where we evidently have to agree to disagree for the reasons I have already posted.
quote:

Ehstevey wrote:In a tag-on note, I don't think that the Blanchian idea was so simplistic, rather that evil would always simply exist, taking many forms (including the amorphous ruinous powers) both seductive and horrifying in an exaggerated and twisted depiction of human nature (as the ruinous powers have always been: through fear, anger, greed and deceit).


John's alcohol-lubricated tirades on life that I experienced have the powers of chaos and failures of human spirit much more malevolent than simply existing.
Additionally, our "better angels", if existing in only a distinct minority of people, swamped in the overwhelming miasma of life.
And a positive god of any variety; if not absent, then not caring really about those "little" humans.
This is what I understood from John and saw in what he influenced.

---
In service of Deity, the Latter-day Prophet, the de la Valette and mankind.
7/Feb/2015, 9:15 am Link to this post Send Email to Warrior Monk   Send PM to Warrior Monk Blog
 
Dethhead Profile
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Hero

Registered: 02-2013
Posts: 42
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Re: World view


Interesting. I actually play this game ( and other fantasy RPG type stuff) to escape this kind of discussion. The real world is filled enough with conflicting opinions and dogma. I really enjoy the dark setting of WHQ because it has random splashes of absurdity and humor. I think the soul crushing bleakness that is prevalent in the Warhammer world is what makes it so awesome and rewarding when you win.

In reality, I'd consider myself a realist. There is a lot in this existence that seems outwardly evil to me and my sensibilities, things I think are worth fighting against tooth and nail. But I have also come to accept that in the grand scheme of life, the balance is always found in the end. All that is will be destroyed eventually, and new forms of organic or inorganic substance will take it's place. Forever will my particles be a part of this place, but they weren't really "mine" in the first place.

My semi off topic reply... lol
7/Feb/2015, 10:06 am Link to this post Send Email to Dethhead   Send PM to Dethhead Blog
 
Edquest Profile
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Lord

Registered: 09-2011
Posts: 318
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Re: World view


this is a bit deep for a Sunday morning guys!

I think it was the enemy within series that brought the whole "doom and gloom" roleplay into WFRP.

in that series, for those who have not read/played it (I've only read it. it's marvellous) chaos as evil is a somewhat monolithic force, but not allied to each other.

it's all pervasive, twists peoples views on reality, makes them feel helpless and that this is the only way.
this is in fact true of "evil" in the real world I think too.

if evil came to you all devils horns and scales we would all reject it, instead it comes to you with an offer/opportunity that you know, deep down, is just not right.

and it says to you "if you don't take this opportunity someone else will...your refusal won't help in the long run, someone else will get the benefits, why not you?"

look to politics and you see this is true.

however I quite like it in game so long as handled with an almost comic effect! kind of like when you know you're all screwed, the healer just used their last guaranteed healing ability, the fighters are low on wounds, one more decent power roll and you can survive this....

but you know, you just know, it'll be a 1

(I'm upbeat IRL btw)

---
most of my posts may run into essay length. I find that for a lot of queries/feedback context is important and that is why this happens more often than not.

have a great day :D
15/Mar/2015, 6:48 pm Link to this post Send Email to Edquest   Send PM to Edquest Blog
 


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